Ye Olde Rocket Forum

Ye Olde Rocket Forum (http://www.oldrocketforum.com/index.php)
-   Ask the Doctor (http://www.oldrocketforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=22)
-   -   Estes Double Trouble Kit on Ebay (http://www.oldrocketforum.com/showthread.php?t=3948)

mojo1986 09-28-2008 10:59 AM

Estes Double Trouble Kit on Ebay
 
RD, I direct your attention to a kit currently selling on Ebay.............

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...:MEWA:IT&ih=010

Is this legitimate? Do you ever remember seeing Estes 'kitting' their old DOM rocket plans? This thing doesn't even have a price on it, and the only Estes kits I have ever seen without a price were the special 'Bonus' kits. So is this for real? If not, the Ebay 'fraud squad' should be notified at once so that some unsuspecting collector doesn't get burned. Any comments you have would be most welcome. Thanks in advance for your input.

Joe

SEL 09-28-2008 11:14 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo1986
RD, I direct your attention to a kit currently selling on Ebay.............

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...:MEWA:IT&ih=010

Is this legitimate? Do you ever remember seeing Estes 'kitting' their old DOM rocket plans? This thing doesn't even have a price on it, and the only Estes kits I have ever seen without a price were the special 'Bonus' kits. So is this for real? If not, the Ebay 'fraud squad' should be notified at once so that some unsuspecting collector doesn't get burned. Any comments you have would be most welcome. Thanks in advance for your input.

Joe


YIKES!!! Could it have been a promo/give-away for one of the NARAM's? The header tag is rare enough, but if it's a legitimate kit ......... :eek: :eek: :eek:

Looks to be un-opened - kinda hard to stuff parts and instructions into a bag and re-seal it
with that kind of tag (not to say it could't be done). Looking at the other stuf f this guy has on auction, it's unlikely he's trying to sucker anyone. I wonder where he found it?

S.

shockwaveriderz 09-28-2008 11:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo1986
RD, I direct your attention to a kit currently selling on Ebay.............

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...:MEWA:IT&ih=010

Is this legitimate? Do you ever remember seeing Estes 'kitting' their old DOM rocket plans? This thing doesn't even have a price on it, and the only Estes kits I have ever seen without a price were the special 'Bonus' kits. So is this for real? If not, the Ebay 'fraud squad' should be notified at once so that some unsuspecting collector doesn't get burned. Any comments you have would be most welcome. Thanks in advance for your input.

Joe


this indeed is an "oddity"; if not a rarity.

terry dean

LeeR 09-28-2008 11:18 AM

The real giveaway is the title of the instructions in the bag:
... Rocket Plan #30

I remember this plan as a kid, and I have a copy of it in my collection. A friend of mine built this, about the same time I built the Augie II. This plan is from the mid-60s.

While it might be fun to build this and have all the parts supplied by this person, it is no "super find" of an old kit, and it is worth the price of components only. JimZ site could get you a copy of the plan.

Buyer Beware!

SEL 09-28-2008 11:24 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeR
The real giveaway is the title of the instructions in the bag:
... Rocket Plan #30

I remember this plan as akid, and I have a copy of it in my collection. A friend of mine built this, about the same time I built the Augie II. This plan is from the mid-60s.

While it might be fun to build this and have all the parts supplied by this person, it is no "super find" of an old kit, and it is worth the price of components only. JimZ site could get you a copy of the plan.

Buyer Beware!


I disagree - if this is a real kit put out by Estes, then it's extremely rare. Just about ANY old Estes kit is just a bag of parts that can be bought nowadays. It's the fact that it's bagged and sealed that makes it valuable to a collector.

S.

LeeR 09-28-2008 11:29 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SEL
I disagree - if this is a real kit put out by Estes, then it's extremely rare. Just about ANY old Estes kit is just a bag of parts that can be bought nowadays. It's the fact that it's bagged and sealed that makes it valuable to a collector.

S.


Anyone with a "Seal-A-Meal" could make up a supposedly "sealed" kit.

Estes would not put out a "bag of parts" with their "free kit" instructions. Where is the cardboard insert? Anyone bidding on this needs proof that it came from Estes, and not some unscrupulous person trying to make a fast buck off someone.

Someone put up the proof, and I'll eat my words.

mojo1986 09-28-2008 11:35 AM

I think Lee's caution is warranted...............unless this thing can be verified as a legitimate Estes 'kit' (if so, it had to be a handout, as suggested by Sean, because it has no printed price) it should be viewed with some suspicion. On the other hand, if it is legit, it is most certainly rare, and will go for a price far beyond the value of its components. So hey, Sean and Lee, you're both right!

Joe

SEL 09-28-2008 12:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeR
Anyone with a "Seal-A-Meal" could make up a supposedly "sealed" kit.

Estes would not put out a "bag of parts" with their "free kit" instructions. Where is the cardboard insert?


I could be wrong, but the hang tag indicates this came out (IF it came out :)) before Estes used cardboard inserts. This was when Estes used the instructuions as seen in this kit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeR
Anyone bidding on this needs proof that it came from Estes, and not some unscrupulous person trying to make a fast buck off someone.

Someone put up the proof, and I'll eat my words.


I agree - we need more information.

S.

Royatl 09-28-2008 01:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeR
Anyone with a "Seal-A-Meal" could make up a supposedly "sealed" kit.

Estes would not put out a "bag of parts" with their "free kit" instructions. Where is the cardboard insert? Anyone bidding on this needs proof that it came from Estes, and not some unscrupulous person trying to make a fast buck off someone.

Someone put up the proof, and I'll eat my words.


if the header tag is to be believed, it is from the era *before* cardboard inserts, when the instructions were printed with the title card on them (the same way Semroc does now).

Still, this doesn't strike me as legit, though they could have been done for some special order. The people here who would know are Bill Simon (don't know if he's recently logged on), and Vern & Gleda, who are probably reading the forum under another name.

Rocket Doctor 09-28-2008 01:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mojo1986
RD, I direct your attention to a kit currently selling on Ebay.............

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...:MEWA:IT&ih=010

Is this legitimate? Do you ever remember seeing Estes 'kitting' their old DOM rocket plans? This thing doesn't even have a price on it, and the only Estes kits I have ever seen without a price were the special 'Bonus' kits. So is this for real? If not, the Ebay 'fraud squad' should be notified at once so that some unsuspecting collector doesn't get burned. Any comments you have would be most welcome. Thanks in advance for your input.

Joe

Joe

I would be very suspicious of this one. In over 44 years in the hobby, I have never seen anything such as this.

From the header, it would have had a carboard insert, as mentioned, if you would carefully take the header apart and reseal it, you coulp put anything into a bog and try to sell it.

As also mentioned, this was from a MRN, and "kit 30" is not a kit, just a design. I guess anyone could "kit" a kit and try to sell it as an original.

I will try to find out about this "oddity".

RD

Check out the seller ID "sillysusancat" with only 3 feedbacks, also, look at the other items that the seller has up for bid. An Estes launcher and many metal trucks etc.

TXFergie 09-28-2008 05:06 PM

Someone has already emailed him about the origins of the kit. Here is his reply from the eBay posting:

"I've received several questions like this. The kit came from a hobby store in Laurel, Maryland. It has been with me for somewhere around 40 years. This is the original package that the rocket was purchased in. I have never opened it. If it is repackaged parts, the store did ti 40 years ago. Sorry, but I don't know any more than that. Tom"

Looks funny, but I wasn't even here 40 years ago so who knows......hopefully one of our wonderful veterans (of the hobby) can figure it out.

Rocket Doctor 09-28-2008 06:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by TXFergie
Someone has already emailed him about the origins of the kit. Here is his reply from the eBay posting:

"I've received several questions like this. The kit came from a hobby store in Laurel, Maryland. It has been with me for somewhere around 40 years. This is the original package that the rocket was purchased in. I have never opened it. If it is repackaged parts, the store did ti 40 years ago. Sorry, but I don't know any more than that. Tom"

Looks funny, but I wasn't even here 40 years ago so who knows......hopefully one of our wonderful veterans (of the hobby) can figure it out.


I emailed the seller for more information. I also sent out a few more emails to try and find out if this is a rarity or a hoax.

I would say, off the top of my head, that, if this came from a hobby shop 40 years ago, then, they could have possibly repackaged it from parts/ Who knows???

I knew of a hobby shop that purchased parts in bulk and repacked them with their own headers, prices etc.

Anything is possible. Hopefully, my sources will come through with an answer.

jdbectec 09-29-2008 09:32 AM

FWIW my original "birdie" kit came with the DOM plan as the instructions when it was recieved as a free kit and was packaged similary.

STRMan 10-07-2008 04:48 PM

Wow. That went for a nice chunk of change for a kit with uncertain origins, huh?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...em=200258003308

Rocket Doctor 10-07-2008 04:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by STRMan
Wow. That went for a nice chunk of change for a kit with uncertain origins, huh?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...em=200258003308


You gotta be kidding???????
Let's all kit up some parts and get a bag sealer and go into business, even legit kits aren't going for that much in this economy??????

lurker01 10-07-2008 06:22 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Doctor
You gotta be kidding???????
Let's all kit up some parts and get a bag sealer and go into business, even legit kits aren't going for that much in this economy??????


RD,

I don't know ... here is a list of rockets that closed for WAY over what they are valued at yet NO ONE raised ANY concern:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Estes-Flying-Mo...id=p3286.c0.m14

I have 3-4 and would EASILY sell you an HJ for $125 free shipping!

http://cgi.ebay.com/REVELL-APOLLO-S...id=p3286.c0.m14

Piece of junk, very unscale and worth only $75 - $100 IMHO

http://cgi.ebay.com/Estes-Saturn-1B...id=p3286.c0.m14

I would rather buy the Semroc version and fix all the unscale issues with it or for the price that this closed at, might as well buy the Apogee Sat 1b

The above just closed within the last 10 days. There are plenty more examples if one wants to spend 30 min to an hour searching the ebay site.

Did you receive any word from the sources you e-mailed about the Double Trouble?

Bob

Rocket Doctor 10-08-2008 07:21 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker01
RD,

I don't know ... here is a list of rockets that closed for WAY over what they are valued at yet NO ONE raised ANY concern:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Estes-Flying-Mo...id=p3286.c0.m14

I have 3-4 and would EASILY sell you an HJ for $125 free shipping!

http://cgi.ebay.com/REVELL-APOLLO-S...id=p3286.c0.m14

Piece of junk, very unscale and worth only $75 - $100 IMHO

http://cgi.ebay.com/Estes-Saturn-1B...id=p3286.c0.m14

I would rather buy the Semroc version and fix all the unscale issues with it or for the price that this closed at, might as well buy the Apogee Sat 1b

The above just closed within the last 10 days. There are plenty more examples if one wants to spend 30 min to an hour searching the ebay site.

Did you receive any word from the sources you e-mailed about the Double Trouble?

Bob


Sorry to say, my sources never replied back. Usually any free kits that Estes had offered through mail order purchases were stock kits using stock packaging. There could be exceptions to the rule though, but, for this one, I don't have a clue.

Also, over the years, Estes has made "special" kits/packagin for retailers as per their request.

lurker01 10-14-2008 06:36 PM

4 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TXFergie
Someone has already emailed him about the origins of the kit. Here is his reply from the eBay posting:

"I've received several questions like this. The kit came from a hobby store in Laurel, Maryland. It has been with me for somewhere around 40 years. This is the original package that the rocket was purchased in. I have never opened it. If it is repackaged parts, the store did ti 40 years ago. Sorry, but I don't know any more than that. Tom"

Looks funny, but I wasn't even here 40 years ago so who knows......hopefully one of our wonderful veterans (of the hobby) can figure it out.



Fergie,

I have some close-ups of the kit, and it is a KIT not a repackaged bag. As Jeffery pointed out, he received his Birdie kit in the same fashion as a free kit. I used to receive Centuri kits in the same fashion and yes I was one of those who mailed ordered the Stellar kits when Centuri was closing them out and would receive kits in stapled bags with nothing but parts and instructions.

If this is a kit, it is one of the best fakes I have EVER seen!

All the parts are old stock: checker board plastic chute in sealed plastic bag. Inspector Ticket with serial number. Thin 60's engine blocks. The paper instructions have reacted with the balsa on both sides and yellowed only in the area in contact (the instructions are folded around 2 sheets of balsa). The snap-svivel shows slight oxidation as well as the screw eye. The sealed end (bottom) shows an industrial size/type melt line. Its 1/8th of an inch thick with tiny ridges. Home seal-a-meal units have a thin 1/32 line where the platic is melted together. I know the industrial types as I used to own one when I ran a computer software business where I had to seal boxes and bags of cables.

The tubes are all machine cut and not done by hand. Header tag is plyable and heat sealed to the plastic. No glue, tape, staples or any abbrassions or lifting anywere where the paper tag makes contact to the plastic bag.

What now needs to be deternmined is what motivated this kits' existence? There is no price tag, or residue of a tag. This would make sense if it were a free kit. Estes and Centuri used to give promotional kits away if the the order was large enough. The header puts the kit somewhere around 1969. The instructions show a copyright date of 1965. This isn't a problem as I have skill level kits (1973-) that have "K" kit instructions in them along with the header cards.

Bill Simon or even Vern himself may remember these kits.

Jeffery received a Birdie in the same form back when they were given away. Now the Double Trouble. I have in my collection, Beta (pre-retail) kits where they were mailed out to builders for evaluation so that changes could be made to the kits prior to retail. I don't think this was a beta.

Another kit that was never offered in any catalogs that I know off was the K-53 Stinger. I have a couple and they also came packaged the same way.

So know we know of 3 kits packaged in this fashion:

K-53 Stinger <--- I confirm
Double Trouble <--- I confirm
TK-44 Birdie <--- Jeffrey Deem

I have a feeling there are others... just have to keep an eye out on ebay.

I have included some close-ups of the kit.

Bob

mojo1986 10-15-2008 07:32 PM

I believe the kit is a legitimate Estes product. I don't think it was a free kit offered as a bonus for an order of a given size, though. Estes had a good selection of such kits that they gave out over the years, always with some kind of 'Free Kit' designation. Early ones had the yellow oval sticker on the outside of the bag; later ones had 'Free Kit' printed on the front face of the instructions. This Double Trouble kit is very unusual. It may have been given out at a trade show or rocketry meet. Perhaps Estes tried a promotion to boost sales of their rocketry parts..............they were overstocked by the early seventies which led to publication in 1974 of the Parts Catalog. Whatever it is, I have a hunch that it is completely authentic.

Joe

al_packer 10-18-2008 10:03 PM

Yes, Estes Ind. did "kit up" parts for some of the DOM models. It was Vern's idea to do so. I could have sworn that we offered them in the MRN, but after this many years, I'm fuzzy on the marketing details. I do know that we shipped of a bunch of them to the various NARAMs. Since I was back in Penrose minding the store while Vern, Bob Cannon and Norm Avery represented the company at the meets, I can only assume that we used them as free handouts.

Bill Simon

lurker01 10-18-2008 10:45 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by al_packer
Yes, Estes Ind. did "kit up" parts for some of the DOM models. It was Vern's idea to do so. I could have sworn that we offered them in the MRN, but after this many years, I'm fuzzy on the marketing details. I do know that we shipped of a bunch of them to the various NARAMs. Since I was back in Penrose minding the store while Vern, Bob Cannon and Norm Avery represented the company at the meets, I can only assume that we used them as free handouts.

Bill Simon


Thanks Bill for clearing this up. I think Scott needs to add this to the Estes kit list so that yet another piece of Estes history is recorded. It would be interesting to see which DOM kits were actually packaged for distrubution.

Bob

Ltvscout 10-19-2008 08:18 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker01
Thanks Bill for clearing this up. I think Scott needs to add this to the Estes kit list so that yet another piece of Estes history is recorded. It would be interesting to see which DOM kits were actually packaged for distrubution.

Bob

Bob,

Were you the one that purchased this in the auction? I'll gladly add it to the list, I just need some details if you have any. Specifically, name of the kit (I'm assuming it's Double Trouble), model # of the kit and if anyone has any guesstimates as to when it was released. Maybe a guess going by the type of hang tag used.

lurker01 10-19-2008 03:44 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ltvscout
Bob,

Were you the one that purchased this in the auction? I'll gladly add it to the list, I just need some details if you have any. Specifically, name of the kit (I'm assuming it's Double Trouble), model # of the kit and if anyone has any guesstimates as to when it was released. Maybe a guess going by the type of hang tag used.



Scott,

Name - Double Trouble
Kit# KP-30 (Kit Plan-30)
Year - 1969

Ltvscout 10-19-2008 06:29 PM

Thanks for the info, Bob.

jdbectec 10-23-2008 02:32 PM

I should point out that my birdie was a K-44 version, first offered as a free kit. The instructions were the design of the month plan, no face card. and a standard hang tag (now missing).

Gingerdawg 09-01-2015 01:16 PM

Bump of an old thread.....
There is another Double Trouble on ebay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1970-ESTES-...=item43e1d7b39d

ghrocketman 09-01-2015 01:36 PM

In addition to the "Double Trouble" the same seller is offering a Sealed/Same style Hang Tag DOM Scorpion as well (this is NOT the plastic finned early/mid 80's Scorpion).
If these kits are not legit DOM kits from Estes, WHERE would the hang-tags come from ????


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:40 AM.

Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.