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MDorffler 04-14-2009 02:28 PM

Ask Mike
 
My name is Mike Dorffler. Some of you know me, or know of me. I have been a model rocket kit designer with Estes Industries for nearly 40 years. I have over these years developed three camera systems, several launch controllers and launch pads, over 250 produced model rocket kits, several rocket motors, and several rocket related electronic items, all for this hobby we collectively enjoy. I have had lunch with Buzz Aldrin, Scott Carpenter, Joe Johnson and John Dyksta, Grant McQuen, and even Lee Van Cleef and Charlie Bronson, during the course of Estes business. I have made motors for movie special affects such as Firefox, aided in FBI criminal investigations, and even designed the model rocket launch system now in use at Space Camp.

I first started at Estes when the main plant at Penrose had just been completed and the parking area was still gravel. I worked with and helped build the company with Vern and Gleda, Bill Simon, Ed Brown, Gene Street, Wayne Kellner, Bill See and several other wonderful people and close friends. Over the years I have witnessed the many changes of management and ownership, and lived through the periods of company success and those of struggle.

As the time is approaching for me to exchange my modeling knives and body tubes for a fishing rod, I felt it might be worthwhile to offer to share my many experiences and rocketry knowledge base with the YORF forum members. With this post today I am opening the “Ask Mike” forum for the purpose of offering you the opportunity to ask me anything you like related to Estes model rocketry history, model rocket kit development, kit designers, Estes personalities, or what happened when. I’ll share what we found worked and what didn’t, why certain black powder types work for motors and why others don’t, or even what manufacturing tolerances that must absolutely be maintained for certain components.

And then there is so much to tell about the intensity and incredible work ethic of the many people who I have had the pleasure of working with at Estes. These people are the ones responsible for bringing all of you the hobby of model rocketry in a way none of you have any concept of. Many are gone now but you should know about them. And then there are the antics of the R&D guys who purposely and shamefully tested the patience of Emma, our beloved custodian.

There is much Estes history to tell and for the YORF members to learn. This forum is therefore for you, the forum members to enjoy, and I hope all members eventually gravitate to it. Because I want our exchanges to generally be light in nature, I must request the following;

This forum is for the purpose of sharing information, not for bashing Estes Industries. If you want to vent your distain or anger at Estes Industries for any reason, don’t do it on my forum as I will refuse to answer. I will not answer any questions regarding any aspect of the financial operation of Estes Industries. If you want to vent your anger at the government, write a letter to your local newspaper editor, don’t post it on my forum. Be civil. You will get far more information from me that way.

Okay, who has a question?

A Fish Named Wallyum 04-14-2009 02:38 PM

We're Not Worthy!!! :d

Leo 04-14-2009 02:39 PM

Mike, welcome aboard.

I must say it is great seeing you here. I look forward to many threads relating to Estes rocketry, from the past to the present :)

A Fish Named Wallyum 04-14-2009 02:41 PM

Antics. We're all about antics. How about a story or twenty?

SEL 04-14-2009 02:52 PM

Mike,

Thanks for joining the forum and giving us this opportunity to pick your brain.

Being a motor junky, I would love to see photos and hear about motors that you've designed
and tested, what propellants were used, what worked and what didn't, and why the ones that worked and weren't produced weren't produced.

Thanks,

Sean

mycrofte 04-14-2009 03:02 PM

I would like to know why R&D takes so long. Kinda makes it hard to jump on some things doesn't it?!?

P.S. When you do trade it all in for the fishing pole, can I have your job?

foose4string 04-14-2009 03:13 PM

Mike, welcome. I look forward to reading this segment of the forum.

With over 250 of your designs that went into production, what was your favorite? Which design was the most successful in terms of numbers? What was your least favorite design(or one that came back to bite you in the rear?)

rstaff3 04-14-2009 03:13 PM

I too will thank you up-front for taking away from your valuable fishing time here!

I'm also interested in motors, mostly the ones we can't buy (at least currently :)) at our friendly neighborhood hobby store.

Oh, I'm also curious whether you will fly any rockets after you retire? I.e. is rocketry both a hobby and work or has the latter beat the prior out of you?

DeanHFox 04-14-2009 03:19 PM

Dang!
 
I was gonna ask what your favorite design was, but foose beat me to it...

So, I'll go in this direction...of all the "personalities" or "celebrities" you've met in your tenure at Estes...which one inspired you the most? And why?

(and, if you don't mind this question...of everyone you met, which person was most unlike what you expected them to be?)

:)

Thanks for taking time to share your memories with us. Your efforts at Estes gave me a wonderful lifetime hobby...here's hoping that spending a little time in our corner of the Web will enrich yours a bit, too! :)

Jerry Irvine 04-14-2009 03:36 PM

I have an actual question. When Gary R and I visited Estes on the way to NARAM PA you rushed out to give us news about 110 film availability for the Astrocam that was "incorrect". What's up with that?

Am I correct a 24mm E case D20-0,3,6,9 is practical?

There is a feature on this site that records the original designer for Estes kits. Would you please commit an hour a month for three months to composing an email clarifying as many of those as possible?

May I take you fishing during the next five summers? I would ask Mary Roberts to join us, but she scares me. She can totally handle a gun and dress her prey, and I'm not so sure she considers me human. ;)

Jerry

sandman 04-14-2009 03:42 PM

Mike, I'm real glad you are here!!! WELCOME!

WOW! Where do I begin?

I guess everybody on this forum knows, especially through my kits, that I am a scale nut.

My impressions of Mike D is you are too. ;)

First question for today.

In your tenure at Estes did you ever come up with a scale design that you were excited about but just never made it to production or even the light of day?

Second question.

I know you did a lot of designs but specifically what was your favorite "scale" design?

Rocketflyer 04-14-2009 04:11 PM

Hello Mike. Thank you for your time and willingness to post and answer questions.

My questions are mainly about motors. Has the overall performace of some of "todays" motors diminished since the motors of the past? It seems that the "C" impulse motors are a little weaker than the bygone days (then again it could be memory loss on my part :o ).

Secondly, why have the longer delays for the 13mm motors been discontinued? A 3 sec delay in most little rockets usually results in shredded chutes, etc.

Thank you once again. I really look forward to hearing of your time and experiences at Estes. The knowlege, insights and asides will be priceless to all of us, I'm sure! :D

tbzep 04-14-2009 05:29 PM

How did you go about designing the Cineroc ? Was it a kitbash of a regular movie camera, or did you have to design every single part?

scigs30 04-14-2009 05:31 PM

Mike, Welcome.
1. Can you give us some finishing tips used by Estes to build catalog modes, also do catalog models actually fly?
2. What was the actual color of the Estes Scrambler last produced in 1977?

tbzep 04-14-2009 05:36 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by scigs30
2. What was the actual color of the Estes Scrambler last produced in 1977?


It's too late, you've already painted it!

dwmzmm 04-14-2009 05:52 PM

Wow, Mike, welcome aboard!! Had the feeling that something really great was about to happen here.

I was the one who traded several e-mails back in 2004 regarding the Cineroc. Your suggestions and tips proved very valuable. Afterwards, managed to fly it three times, got
very good footage on the second flight, but got destroyed on the third flight due to the core
engine's ignition failure. Subject is on another thread posted a while back.

Again, welcome and we're looking forward to learning about the history of this wonderful
hobby, Estes, and the people behind it.

Rocket Doctor 04-14-2009 05:56 PM

Can you list all of the kits that you have designed and that were made into kits?

What was your favorite one and what was your least favorite one.?
?
What about the Classic Series and the WM Sustainables?

Will motors, especially boosters be availabe at WM for the above mentioned kits?

Jerry Irvine 04-14-2009 06:34 PM

Mike,

Please tell Barry I have juice to proffer ORM-D for BP, APCP, and APCP/KPCP, a Jerrypro from the 80's.

Jerry

MDorffler 04-14-2009 06:43 PM

Of course you are, Bill. Keep posting.

Royatl 04-14-2009 06:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MDorffler
My name is Mike Dorffler. Some of you know me, or know of me. I have been a model rocket kit designer with Estes Industries for nearly 40 years. I have over these years developed three camera systems, several launch controllers and launch pads, over 250 produced model rocket kits, several rocket motors, and several rocket related electronic items, all for this hobby we collectively enjoy.


Welcome Mike, and bravo!

Only last August did I finally get my hands on my own copy of your initial contribution to the hobby, a Cineroc (I have a long story somewhere else on YORF about mowing lawns to buy one in 1971 only to have the funds diverted to a 35mm camera to cover my trip to NARAM 13 that year).

When it went away in the mid 70's, the scuttlebutt was that Estes could no longer obtain the motors used in it. I thought this was a rather odd reason, as from my examination of John Langford's and Mike Myrick's Cinerocs (usually after they had crashed!), the motors looked like standard issue motors you could find in Allied or Lafayette catalogs back in the day.

My first question: Was motor un-availability the real reason the Cineroc was discontinued?


(and of course, by "motors" I mean the small electric ones, for our readers who are more easily confused! :) )

MDorffler 04-14-2009 06:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo
Mike, welcome aboard.

I must say it is great seeing you here. I look forward to many threads relating to Estes rocketry, from the past to the present :)


Thnks, Leo. I'm looking forward to hearing from rocketeers everywhere.

Royatl 04-14-2009 06:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbzep
How did you go about designing the Cineroc ? Was it a kitbash of a regular movie camera, or did you have to design every single part?


Gee zep!
All you had to do to get that answer was join the NAR last year and get Sport Rocketry Magazine! :)

dwmzmm 04-14-2009 06:47 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Royatl

My first question: Was motor un-availability the real reason the Cineroc was discontinued?


I've also wondered about that; I "do" have the two electric motors from my two crashed
Cinerocs. Also have enough pieces & components to "rebuild" another one, if I can just get
around to doing just that (will have to refresh my soldering skills)......

MDorffler 04-14-2009 06:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by A Fish Named Wallyum
Antics. We're all about antics. How about a story or twenty?


Bill - I'll probably write the longer replies later in the evenenings - I don't leave Penrose until late in the day. Be patient and I'll be sure to tell a few cool tales.

dwmzmm 04-14-2009 06:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Royatl
Gee zep!
All you had to do to get that answer was join the NAR last year and get Sport Rocketry Magazine! :)


Bingo!

MDorffler 04-14-2009 06:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by SEL
Mike,

Thanks for joining the forum and giving us this opportunity to pick your brain.

Being a motor junky, I would love to see photos and hear about motors that you've designed
and tested, what propellants were used, what worked and what didn't, and why the ones that worked and weren't produced weren't produced.

Thanks,

Sean


Sean - I will do that - got to get through this first group of posts first, then will swing around and write more.

SEL 04-14-2009 06:59 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by MDorffler
Sean - I will do that - got to get through this first group of posts first, then will swing around and write more.


Fair enough.

S.

tbzep 04-14-2009 07:09 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Royatl
Gee zep!
All you had to do to get that answer was join the NAR last year and get Sport Rocketry Magazine! :)


I'm a member, but I don't remember reading an issue with that in it. I guess my wife picked it up and did something with it by mistake. :eek:

MDorffler 04-14-2009 07:18 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by A Fish Named Wallyum
Antics. We're all about antics. How about a story or twenty?


Okay, how about this......

Wayne Kellner, is in my opinion the premium model rocket designer of all time, was a Monty Python and MAD magazine fanatic. I always wondered why he didn't try to write a skit or two for MP.

Wayne relieved stress by suddenly dropping what he was doing and going into a spontanios 'Monty Python' skit, then when it was over would just go sit down again like nothing had happened.

He always had all kinds of different stuff on top of one of his file cabinets, one of them being a plastic DC-3 that none of the parts were glued together. He would hold it up in one hand, vibrate his throut with the other (severe flight vibration) and then would say something like;

Suh!, the left engine is on fire...
No it's not..it's just something in your eye that's blurring your vision...
But Suh, the flames are getting bigger.....
(he shakes one of the wings off)
Suh, the left wing has fallen off.....
No Smedley, that can't happen...this plane was built in the USA!
Stupid Americans, now the other wing has fallen off...

And Wayne would go though this until all the parts were on the floor. He would pick them up, stick them back together, put the DC-3 bck on the file cabinet and go sit down.

Some of you who have copies of some of the Model Rocket News with front pages that Wayne did. I'll go into that later as well.

MDorffler 04-14-2009 07:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Irvine
I have an actual question. When Gary R and I visited Estes on the way to NARAM PA you rushed out to give us news about 110 film availability for the Astrocam that was "incorrect". What's up with that?

Am I correct a 24mm E case D20-0,3,6,9 is practical?

There is a feature on this site that records the original designer for Estes kits. Would you please commit an hour a month for three months to composing an email clarifying as many of those as possible?

May I take you fishing during the next five summers? I would ask Mary Roberts to join us, but she scares me. She can totally handle a gun and dress her prey, and I'm not so sure she considers me human. ;)

Jerry


Jerry - help me here - I'm an old guy - what was it I was supposed to have told you aboout 110 film thet was incorrect?

MDorffler 04-14-2009 07:23 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by mycrofte
I would like to know why R&D takes so long. Kinda makes it hard to jump on some things doesn't it?!?

P.S. When you do trade it all in for the fishing pole, can I have your job?


Be a little more specific - what part of R&D do you feel takes so long?

MDorffler 04-14-2009 07:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sandman
Mike, I'm real glad you are here!!! WELCOME!

WOW! Where do I begin?

I guess everybody on this forum knows, especially through my kits, that I am a scale nut.

My impressions of Mike D is you are too. ;)

First question for today.

In your tenure at Estes did you ever come up with a scale design that you were excited about but just never made it to production or even the light of day?

Second question.

I know you did a lot of designs but specifically what was your favorite "scale" design?


Yes, I put in an awful lot of time into a really nice Ariane 4 only to be side-swiped by their corporate suits who demanded we pay a 10% royalty. Estes by principle, doesn't pay royalties on either rockets or planes funded by taxpayers. We have always considered scale kits as free advertising and promotion for those affiliations wherever they may be. We still can't legally produce the Ariane without paying a royalty.

MDorffler 04-14-2009 07:50 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocketflyer
Hello Mike. Thank you for your time and willingness to post and answer questions.

My questions are mainly about motors. Has the overall performace of some of "todays" motors diminished since the motors of the past? It seems that the "C" impulse motors are a little weaker than the bygone days (then again it could be memory loss on my part :o ).

Secondly, why have the longer delays for the 13mm motors been discontinued? A 3 sec delay in most little rockets usually results in shredded chutes, etc.

Thank you once again. I really look forward to hearing of your time and experiences at Estes. The knowlege, insights and asides will be priceless to all of us, I'm sure! :D


This is a great question. This sould make for interesting excahnges with the engine guys here.

Many of you may not realize that there has never been two like batches of black powder ever made. That includes the one that may have been made yesterday, and the batch made today on the same equipment, and from materials from the same bags or sacks.

Terry - feel welcome to jump in on this if you think I miss something----

While potassium nitrate stays relatively constant, both the sulfer and charcoal change ever so slightly from lot to lot. The charcoal is the ingredient that has the greatest overall control over the burn rate of a particular batch. Hickory has historically been the preferred source of charcoal, but woods such as pine can in a pinch be uased as well.

Trees as a species morph over time, which side of the hill they were grown on and where they were harvested changes, the ingrediants in the soil changes, and so does the temperature while they were growing. The variables are staggering that affect the tree before the wood is harvested. And do you use the branches or the truck, or both? Then there is the process of heating the wood to produce the charcoal. Getting to repeatable charcoal for black powder is a serious issue.

To get to your essential question - yes, black powder made today is 'slower' than it was ten years ago, and it's getting slower. That changes the burn rate of our motors just as it does everyone else's motors. We do burn rate tests on every single lot of powder we buy to characterize it. We press and burn a lot of motors in this process. We have to know how many clicks to adjust engine manufacturing equipment in order to maintain the NAR impulse standards we have always adhered to.

Does this help?

InFlight 04-14-2009 07:56 PM

Mike,

Thanks for joining the forum and sharing your life with us!

That was a great story about Wayne Kellner. Monty Python was/is still fun to watch. :D


1. How did you and Wayne come up with the Goonybirds?

2. What inspired you to design the Blue Bird Zero?

PS: the BBZ is one of my favorites!

.

MDorffler 04-14-2009 08:05 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Royatl
Welcome Mike, and bravo!

Only last August did I finally get my hands on my own copy of your initial contribution to the hobby, a Cineroc (I have a long story somewhere else on YORF about mowing lawns to buy one in 1971 only to have the funds diverted to a 35mm camera to cover my trip to NARAM 13 that year).

When it went away in the mid 70's, the scuttlebutt was that Estes could no longer obtain the motors used in it. I thought this was a rather odd reason, as from my examination of John Langford's and Mike Myrick's Cinerocs (usually after they had crashed!), the motors looked like standard issue motors you could find in Allied or Lafayette catalogs back in the day.

My first question: Was motor un-availability the real reason the Cineroc was discontinued?


(and of course, by "motors" I mean the small electric ones, for our readers who are more easily confused! :) )


Roy - there wer a number of issues that all came about in a short amount of time that helped put the Cineroc down.

Yes, there was the motor issue. The manufacturer got up and evaporated. Our search for a replacement did not go well. I designed the film advance around a certain motor that ran at 'X' rpm at at 'Y' current. Then the case had a specific mounting method and the plastic of the camera were designed to match. If a suitable motor was found with different mounting, then we woul have to go back and spend the money to correct the molds.

Secondly, the original lens mold was one of a kind. We had that tool made just for the Cineroc. It certainly was not an Edmunds lens as so many have speculated. We had lost first one, then two of the four cavities by carelessness of the manufacturer. Then they played a numbers game with us to try to increase the price of the lens with only two healthy cavites.

Then the people who processed the film said they didn't want to do it anymore. We couldn't find anyone anywhere who would custom process little 10' lengths of Super 8 film.

Then on top of this came the new Damon management with their cost cutting games. That pretty well ended any hope to put some money into repairing Cineroc tooling.

And pretty much everyone who wnated a Cineroc had bought one by then and sales were down. So it was many things that ended the Cineroc. Sure was a great product though.

InFlight 04-14-2009 08:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Irvine
...May I take you fishing during the next five summers? I would ask Mary Roberts to join us, but she scares me. She can totally handle a gun and dress her prey, and I'm not so sure she considers me human. Jerry
Mary Roberts is a very nice person.

My wife can totally handle a gun and dress her prey, so I guess I don't see a problem with this :chuckle:

.

rokitflite 04-14-2009 08:22 PM

Hi Mike,

Thanks a lot for your tremendous contributions to this hobby. I have to say that it is your fault and your fault alone (bashing you not Estes) that I am as deeply involed in this hobby as I have become. I was mildly interested in the hobby in the late 70s and early 80s... Then I attended one of the Pearl River model rocket seminars in NY. That is where I met Herb Desind and saw his Cineroc films for the first time. I began hunting for a Cineroc like crazy and actually ended up getting one from Oakie Six out of your returns department while I was on a tour of Estes. That got me looking at the older designs and as a result the large collection and interest I have in the hobby today.

No questions, just a big "THANK YOU"!

-Scott Branche

MDorffler 04-14-2009 08:42 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by foose4string
Mike, welcome. I look forward to reading this segment of the forum.

With over 250 of your designs that went into production, what was your favorite? Which design was the most successful in terms of numbers? What was your least favorite design(or one that came back to bite you in the rear?)


Honestly, this is a hard one for me. I don't really have one design that stands out as my favorite. I have always preferred my kits with simple lines and simple decors over the rest. Kits such as the Optima and Scorpian come to mind.

While Bill Simon is the original creator of the Estes Alpha, my conversion of that kit from balsa to all plastic helped place it as the all time best seller. While we kept both kits in the line, the numbers produced and sold of the original kit simply fell through the floor. We have sold several million of the plastic Alpha since the early 70's. And we have re-tooled the plastics with no changes many times. They just wear out seeing so many molding cycles.

The kit I have always wished I hadn't done was the Swat. I thought that a camo scheme on a large Satellite Interceptor would be super cool. It wasn't.

scigs30 04-14-2009 08:58 PM

Will Estes ever go back to the Red and white Alpha III?

tbzep 04-14-2009 08:59 PM

What was the competition with Centuri like for you guys doing all the designing? Were there many designs (not just rockets) that were meant to directly compete with a specific product they produced, or vice versa? I know the products eventually intermingled, so I'm referring to the days before that happened. Mr. Estes said he always had a friendly respect and competition with Mr. Piester as a company, but I never saw anything specific printed about it.


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