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-   -   Bob's Collection of Products that were never released (http://www.oldrocketforum.com/showthread.php?t=15898)

Initiator001 03-27-2016 12:40 AM

Products that were never released
 
I like many on this website enjoy discussing/learning about the history of our hobby.

One of the best threads started on this site was the discussion with Mike Dorrfler about Estes products which were announced but never released.

In my many years of collecting I've heard stories about products from hobby rocket companies which never made it out the plant door. In some cases literature, pictures, parts or even entire products were made but never released to the public.

I have some of these items and decided that others may enjoy hearing about them and their history.

I will do the best I can to present these items but most of what I know about each has been verbally told to me, there is little written documentation. If anyone has more actual knowledge about these items please feel free to post it.

I plan to just present items I have. If anyone wishes to ask questions about other products than what I am presenting I ask that this be done in a different thread.

There is no set time for me to contribute to this thread. It will happen randomly as time/mood/if I can find the darn item allows.

Thanks to Scott for supporting this idea.

I hope my fellow rocketeers will enjoy the stories of these products. :)

BEC 03-27-2016 01:07 AM

Sounds good to me, Bob. Bring it on :).

Rocketflyer 03-27-2016 01:50 PM

Oh, this is going to be real interesting! I love this kind of info. I'm looking forward to this, Bob.

SEL 03-27-2016 06:18 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Initiator001
I like many on this website enjoy discussing/learning about the history of our hobby.

One of the best threads started on this site was the discussion with Mike Dorrfler about Estes products which were announced but never released.

In my many years of collecting I've heard stories about products from hobby rocket companies which never made it out the plant door. In some cases literature, pictures, parts or even entire products were made but never released to the public.

I have some of these items and decided that others may enjoy hearing about them and their history.

I will do the best I can to present these items but most of what I know about each has been verbally told to me, there is little written documentation. If anyone has more actual knowledge about these items please feel free to post it.

I plan to just present items I have. If anyone wishes to ask questions about other products than what I am presenting I ask that this be done in a different thread.

There is no set time for me to contribute to this thread. It will happen randomly as time/mood/if I can find the darn item allows.

Thanks to Scott for supporting this idea.

I hope my fellow rocketeers will enjoy the stories of these products. :)


Great idea Bob - looking forward to this!

S.

luke strawwalker 03-27-2016 06:33 PM

+1 to comments above! Go for it!

OL J R :)

the mole 03-27-2016 07:25 PM

I'm all eyes. :eek:

Rich Holmes 03-27-2016 08:55 PM

Hopefully not a thread that's never released... :eek:

Doug Sams 03-27-2016 09:15 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Holmes
Hopefully not a thread that's never released... :eek:
Wondering the same thing !

Doug

.

Initiator001 03-27-2016 09:48 PM

Hey, give me a chance to post something. ;) :D

Initiator001 03-27-2016 09:55 PM

Talking Launch Controller
 
1 Attachment(s)
Time Frame: 1998-1999
Company: Estes
Product: Laser Launch Controller

By 1998 Estes Industries had been run by Barry Tunick for almost ten years. Tunick, coming from a toy industry background, wanted to introduce more interaction or ‘play value’ in model rocketry.

One idea was to make the launching of a model rocket more involving. This lead to the idea of having a speaking/talking launch controller. A synthesized voice would sound a countdown and upon reaching zero the rocket would launch.

This speaking controller would replace the Electron Beam controller found in Estes Starter Sets and available separately. It was named the Laser Launch Controller.

Estes went to the effort of having a mold made for this controller and twenty prototype/pre-production units were made. These were fully functional with a female voice giving a five second countdown (It was not the voice of Mary Roberts).

I was sent one of these units to beta-test and I used it at a launch held by the Southern California Rocketry Association (SCRA, NAR Section # 430) at their Los Angeles launch site. The unit had several similarities and differences with the Electron Beam controller. Both used four AA batteries and a safety key but everything else was different.

The safety key was a flat piece of plastic which on one end fit over the top of a launch rod and the other end had a metallic contact. This contact would fit into a socket on the side of the Laser launch controller. This would cause a continuity light to go on if there was a complete circuit to the igniter. The modeler would then hold down a button which would causer the controller to begin speaking the countdown. At ‘zero’ a green light would appear on the controller, the modeler would let go of the button and the rocket would launch. The launch could be stopped by letting go of the button before the green light appeared. This was counter-intuitive to the way other launch controllers operated.

My use of the Laser Launch Controller had a crowd gather to hear the voice of the unit. After one use the crowd walked away with little comment. I brought the controller to usual SCRA post-launch hang-out (Jack-in-the-Box) where folks operated the unit but it failed to hold their attention for long.

My report back to Estes was that it was initially interesting but didn’t hold folks attention. A gimmick.

The Laser Launch Controller never saw production and release. I was told the reason was that the price for the voice chip could not be brought down low enough for the Laser controller to be sold for the same price as the Electron Beam controller. I was also told that there had been some safety concerns raised about the way the unit worked.

I vaguely recall a handbill/buckslip/handout about the Laser Launch Controller but so far I have not found such a thing in my collection.

Of the twenty units made I know of the location of two of them. The status of the other eighteen is unknown to me.

turbofireball 03-28-2016 01:16 AM

Here is the brochure for the Estes Laser Launch Controller:

Ltvscout 03-28-2016 07:41 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Initiator001
I vaguely recall a handbill/buckslip/handout about the Laser Launch Controller but so far I have not found such a thing in my collection.

Of the twenty units made I know of the location of two of them. The status of the other eighteen is unknown to me.

Thanks for that look back in time, Bob and Craig! Bob, since you have one of those controllers is there any chance you could fire it up and record the countdown voice to an MP3 to be attached here?

Jerry Irvine 03-28-2016 08:17 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Initiator001
I was sent one of these units to beta-test and I used it at a launch held by the Southern California Rocketry Association (SCRA, NAR Section # 430) at their Los Angeles launch site. I brought the controller to usual SCRA post-launch hang-out (Jack-in-the-Box) where folks operated the unit but it failed to hold their attention for long.
Almost makes me want to go to a SCRA launch.

georgegassaway 03-28-2016 09:50 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ltvscout
Thanks for that look back in time, Bob and Craig! Bob, since you have one of those controllers is there any chance you could fire it up and record the countdown voice to an MP3 to be attached here?

Or YouTube Video.

luke strawwalker 03-28-2016 11:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Initiator001
Time Frame: 1998-1999
Company: Estes
Product: Laser Launch Controller

By 1998 Estes Industries had been run by Barry Tunick for almost ten years. Tunick, coming from a toy industry background, wanted to introduce more interaction or ‘play value’ in model rocketry.

One idea was to make the launching of a model rocket more involving. This lead to the idea of having a speaking/talking launch controller. A synthesized voice would sound a countdown and upon reaching zero the rocket would launch.

This speaking controller would replace the Electron Beam controller found in Estes Starter Sets and available separately. It was named the Laser Launch Controller.

Estes went to the effort of having a mold made for this controller and twenty prototype/pre-production units were made. These were fully functional with a female voice giving a five second countdown (It was not the voice of Mary Roberts).

I was sent one of these units to beta-test and I used it at a launch held by the Southern California Rocketry Association (SCRA, NAR Section # 430) at their Los Angeles launch site. The unit had several similarities and differences with the Electron Beam controller. Both used four AA batteries and a safety key but everything else was different.

The safety key was a flat piece of plastic which on one end fit over the top of a launch rod and the other end had a metallic contact. This contact would fit into a socket on the side of the Laser launch controller. This would cause a continuity light to go on if there was a complete circuit to the igniter. The modeler would then hold down a button which would causer the controller to begin speaking the countdown. At ‘zero’ a green light would appear on the controller, the modeler would let go of the button and the rocket would launch. The launch could be stopped by letting go of the button before the green light appeared. This was counter-intuitive to the way other launch controllers operated.

My use of the Laser Launch Controller had a crowd gather to hear the voice of the unit. After one use the crowd walked away with little comment. I brought the controller to usual SCRA post-launch hang-out (Jack-in-the-Box) where folks operated the unit but it failed to hold their attention for long.

My report back to Estes was that it was initially interesting but didn’t hold folks attention. A gimmick.

The Laser Launch Controller never saw production and release. I was told the reason was that the price for the voice chip could not be brought down low enough for the Laser controller to be sold for the same price as the Electron Beam controller. I was also told that there had been some safety concerns raised about the way the unit worked.

I vaguely recall a handbill/buckslip/handout about the Laser Launch Controller but so far I have not found such a thing in my collection.

Of the twenty units made I know of the location of two of them. The status of the other eighteen is unknown to me.


That key design is far superior to any other Estes offering... too bad that didn't survive...

OL J R :)

Ltvscout 04-03-2016 08:23 AM

I've made this thread a Sticky, Bob.

Initiator001 04-07-2016 01:50 AM

Folks,

I am enjoying all the discussion about many past products.

However, the point of THIS thread is products from my collection that did not make it into (full) production.

For comments not related to what I post I ask that those posts please go into the thread "Products that were never released."

Thanks you.

Ltvscout 04-07-2016 10:39 PM

This thread is ONLY to be used to discuss items that Bob posts about from his own personal collection. If you wish to discuss other old rocketry items, I strongly encourage it, but not in this thread. Bob already broke off the original off-topic messages into it's own thread located here:

http://www.oldrocketforum.com/showthread.php?t=15884

Which by the way is NOT a closed thread! I have no idea where that insanity came from.

I just broke off the latest off-topic messages into their own thread located here:

http://www.oldrocketforum.com/showthread.php?t=15909

Feel free to continue talking about other old model rocketry items in those threads or feel free to create new ones.

Scott

Initiator001 04-09-2016 08:40 PM

Ejecting SRBs
 
9 Attachment(s)
Time Frame: 1998-1999
Company: Estes
Product: Zenix SSRV Rocket Kit

By the late 1990s Estes management was interested in sales beyond those to hobby distributors/hobby shops. There was no bigger outlet for product than Wal-Mart.
Wal-Mart was/is a mass-merchandiser and it’s customers are not necessarily hobbyists used to working with traditional model rocket materials (balsa, unpainted body tubes, water-slide decals). Products for the Wal-Mart consumer needed to have quick assembly times so the rocket can be launched as soon as possible after purchase.

Along with this the product needed to have a ‘toy’ appeal in that it had ‘play value’, that is, the rocket had to do more than just go up and come down.
This lead to such models as the Astrocam RTF (Camera), Shellshocked/Omloid (Egg carrier), Bailout/Free Fall (Ejects an action figure), Mach 12 (Change fin styles), Manta (Glider), Skywinder and Turbo Copter (Helicopter recovery).

There was one more model announced in this trend for 1998 and it was named the Zenix SSRV. The Zenix was a large rocket over thirty inches tall and nearly one-and-a-half inches in diameter (BT-55). The big feature of the Zenix is that it would drop three simulated external boosters upon ejection of the recovery parachute. These boosters would return to the ground under streamer recovery.

The Zenix SSRV was shown in the 1998 Estes catalog and some marketing fliers but never made it into stores.

Rumors for why this happened discuss initial problems with the three external boosters not reliably falling away from the model. Sometimes all three boosters fell away and sometimes none of them came off. This required more R&D effort and additional work done to the mold for the plastic parts.

Eventually, the problem was resolved. A production run of many thousands of kits were produced and made ready for delivery. According to unsubstantiated stories Estes took the Zenix SSRV model to the Wal-Mart buyers who showed no interest in the kit.

One would think that Estes would still ship the Zenix model to hobby distributors without an order from Wal-Mart. That’s not what happened. For unknown reasons Estes management decided to scrap all the finished Zenix SSRV kits. Some parts were salvaged from the kits but the rest (Packaging, instructions, decals and plastic parts) went to the landfill.

The pictures attached to this post display the packaging and parts for a Zenix SSRV kit. This is the only one of these kits I have ever seen but it suggests that other examples may exist.

(Note: The pictures did not display in the order I wanted)

ghrocketman 04-10-2016 06:37 PM

Scrappin the Zenix sounds like an idiotic write-off decision by that know-nothing-about-hobbies Tunick.
I can't imagine anyone NOT happy he is gone.
It's a MAJOR wonder Estes survived his 'leadership'

LeeR 04-10-2016 07:49 PM

Idiotic decision definitely. If you've got the product, why not offer it up perhaps as a free kit if you place a sizable order -- maybe $50-75? I'm not sure when the "Clearance" section on the website came about, but clearancing the kits seems like a pretty good option, too.

rocket.aero 04-12-2016 05:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeR
Idiotic decision definitely. If you've got the product, why not offer it up perhaps as a free kit if you place a sizable order -- maybe $50-75?


I can think of one really good reason why a company would spike a product: it was potentially unsafe, and a risk management review decided that it would be best to cancel the kit. This model was designed to release simulated strap-on boosters, recovered by streamer. What would happen if a kid forgot or neglected to attach the streamers to these parts, allowing them to come in hot after ejection?

Yeah, we live in a litigious society, and that kinda sucks. Still, I'd rather that Estes kill a product for potential liability issues rather than be sued into oblivion.

James

luke strawwalker 04-12-2016 10:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocket.aero
I can think of one really good reason why a company would spike a product: it was potentially unsafe, and a risk management review decided that it would be best to cancel the kit. This model was designed to release simulated strap-on boosters, recovered by streamer. What would happen if a kid forgot or neglected to attach the streamers to these parts, allowing them to come in hot after ejection?

Yeah, we live in a litigious society, and that kinda sucks. Still, I'd rather that Estes kill a product for potential liability issues rather than be sued into oblivion.

James


I can see your point. Dr. Zooch (Wes) has flown some kits that drop the simulated SRB's at staging without streamers-- when the two stages blow apart they release the SRB's pinned between them. Standard BT-20 tubes with balsa nosecones shouldn't pose too much risk, BUT, as you said, it's a litigious society now and maybe that's why he never offered the kit for sale.

Later! OL J R :)

Don Altschwager 04-13-2016 04:10 PM

Another thing may have happened: Estes may have taken a big tax write-off for the tooling development, production costs, etc. This may have been a bigger value to the company than any profits from selling the kits.

I wonder if the tooling was destroyed or if it still exists.

ManofSteele 04-14-2016 08:11 PM

To set the record straight, the Zenix SSRV was not released due to a problem with the motor mount mold. When we were doing acceptance testing of the final production parts, it was discovered that there was too much slop in the way the parts in the motor mount went together. The result is that the ejection charge would blow back out the aft end by the engine (and fail to deploy the parachute). Since it was a safety issue, we could not release the kit.

The mold could have been modified to make acceptable parts, but the cost exceeded what Estes wanted to spend, so the kit and the parts were scrapped instead.

Dave Talbot did the kit design, and Ron McClaren did the mold design. The design was correct, but the mold was not manufactured to the drawing tolerances.

Matt

Initiator001 04-15-2016 01:09 AM

Matt,

Thanks for the inside story on what actually happened to the Zenix SSRV kit.

So, what would I have to do to the kit I have to make it operate correctly... ;)

Don Altschwager 04-15-2016 09:17 AM

Thanks for the update, it is always interesting to learn the true reasons why things happened.

The correct decision was made; Safety should always trump everything else in our hobby.

Don A

ManofSteele 04-15-2016 10:09 AM

To make the current parts fly correctly, we had to wrap masking tape around the forward and aft end of the motor to shim up the gap between the motor and the plastic motor mount, preventing the ejection gasses from leaking out.

Matt

Doug Sams 04-15-2016 11:17 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ManofSteele
To make the current parts fly correctly, we had to wrap masking tape around the forward and aft end of the motor to shim up the gap between the motor and the plastic motor mount, preventing the ejection gasses from leaking out.
At the risk of going off topic...

For what it's worth, that's not a bad idea on any rocket. I learned that (the hard way) on a level 2 attempt several years ago. The ejection charges work much better when there's a good seal on each end of the rocket. (Plus it gives the motor a little bit of extra retention.)

I've seen many rockets over the years, built with good parts, that had loose fitting motors. A stiff charge will still get the motor out. But a wimpy charge, which happens often enough, combined with a leaky rocket, can result in major disappointment. A couple wraps of tape on the motor can keep the tears away.

Doug

.

tbzep 04-15-2016 02:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Sams
At the risk of going off topic...

For what it's worth, that's not a bad idea on any rocket. I learned that (the hard way) on a level 2 attempt several years ago. The ejection charges work much better when there's a good seal on each end of the rocket. (Plus it gives the motor a little bit of extra retention.)

I've seen many rockets over the years, built with good parts, that had loose fitting motors. A stiff charge will still get the motor out. But a wimpy charge, which happens often enough, combined with a leaky rocket, can result in major disappointment. A couple wraps of tape on the motor can keep the tears away.

Doug

.

Especially with Quest motors in Estes motor tubes.

ghrocketman 04-16-2016 05:52 PM

Thanks for the explanation on the Zenix, Matt.

Jerry Irvine 04-17-2016 08:55 AM

My deleted post explaining two workable fixes for the kit would make possible a release without reworking the molds. I am hoping Estes will read the post.

Woody's Workshop 05-03-2016 08:56 PM

Estes probably will.
The problem is with the consumer "know it all" will never read directions.
Which leaves a safety problem, even when directed on exactly what to do.

Initiator001 01-21-2017 10:20 PM

Estes Stealth Nighthawk
 
4 Attachment(s)
The 1996 Estes catalog (Actually a mostly 1995 catalog with a 1996 product insert) announced several new products.

One was a large, rocket boosted, glide recovery model of the U.S. Air Force F-117A stealth fighter.

Product number was listed as 2117.

This model was to be molded from TufFlite(TM) foam-like material.

According to the catalog, it would be a Skill Level 1 kit.

"Vertical spiral boost to hundreds of feet"

"Returns with a long circling glide"

"Easy to build, no painting required"

"Great for fields of all sizes"

Length: 40.6 cm (16.0 in.)

Wingspan: 39.4 cm (15.5 in.)

Wt.: 170 g (6 oz.)

Engine: C6-3

This was going to be a large-sized model.

I do not recall ever seeing this model displayed at any trade shows I attended.
I did see a mock-up of the product box for the model.

As things turned out, this model never made it into production and release.
From what I recall at the time the model was having a difficult development with all the prototype models having flight issues. Whether the flight issues involved boost, recovery/glide or both I do not remember. None of the test models survived or their parts/remains.

It does appear that actual packaging for the model was produced and I managed to get ahold of one.

Interestingly, for a Skill Level 1 kit the supplies required for assembly on the box include contact cement, epoxy and yellow/white glue. Also paint is listed. So much for easy to build, no painting required.

If anyone has any additional information on this product please feel free to share it.

Attached are pictures of an apparent production package for this kit.

5x7 01-22-2017 06:12 PM

Thank you for doing this, it is facinating!

AstronMike 01-23-2017 10:52 AM

Yea, I recall being quite enthused about that Stealth glider, couldn't wait for it to be released.

That is, until I noticed its intended weight, likening it to the 'Foam Orbiter of Death' and SRX, both of which were DOGS on 18mm C6s.

Might make my own version, using 3mm Depron and paper, as it would not have to be overbuilt to use Estes C6-3s. Was going to do that back in those days, but hadn't gone far enough with Depron then, and the lightest stuff available was not going to save much weight.

Speaking of SRX, I had Estes send me one free, to replace a scratch glider toasted by a Bad Lot C5-3 (Fred knows about those :rolleyes: ). Made my own D12 pod for that, and thus it performed WAY better than the standard-built clunker someone else locally had.

For all the guff that Barry Tunick gets around here, he DID try to get a LOT of neato concept type goodies out there, starting in '92, right after he bought Estes. Some great ideas, but horrid execution thereof..... :(

ManofSteele 01-23-2017 12:15 PM

This was a pretty neat model. The balsa prototypes had a real nice glide. The issue was getting the darn thing to boost straight. Dave Meyers, the designer, finally just fixed one elevator to roll the bird on the way up, and that solved the problem. The high weight was the nose weight required to get the CG far enough forward.

The foam molds for the production model never got completed; as problems continued to crop up between the mold maker and the production house, it finally was cheaper to pull the plug on the project than to continue. If I recall correctly, this was much bigger than the other products the foam molder had been making, and it may have been their equipment was not sized properly to make the parts.

Matt

Initiator001 02-02-2017 03:22 PM

NCRBE Orbit
 
In the mid-1990s, North Coast Rocketry (NCR), an early name in mid- and high-power rocketry, entered into an licensing agreement with Estes Industries to develop and release larger (mid-power) rocketry products.

Referred to as 'North Coast Rocketry By Estes' (NCRBE) this joint collaboration resulted in the release of eight rocket kits in 3" and 4" diameters along with a large Star Wars X-Wing Fighter model. Launch equipment, parts and a line of rocket motors labeled 'Dark Star' represented the original product release in 1998.

Additional products were expected and a hint of what they might be came in the form of a press release in October of 1998:

"Coming in February from North Coast Rocketry line is the Orbit(tm) High Impulse model rocket launch set. The minimum diameter Orbit(tm) is designed to fly over 3,000 feet on Dartkstar motors and is recovered by a huge fluorescent streamer. Kit also features pre-colored body tube and one piece fin unit for easy assembly. And because the rocket weighs less than a pound at liftoff, no FAA notification is required. The Orbit Launch Set also comes with the Modular(tm) Launch Pad and High Impulse(tm) Launch Controller."

So what was this 'Orbit' model rocket kit? Stay tuned...

Tango Juliet 02-03-2017 07:03 AM

Definitely tuned in. This is some really interesting history. In about 1991 or so, I had gotten out of the hobby and just returned to it last year. The developments to MPR/HPR over the last 20 years is astounding. I suppose you could see in the current Estes PSII line a lineage to this early development with NCR.

Initiator001 02-04-2017 03:08 PM

NCRBE Orbit
 
The genisis of the Orbit launch set was a decision by Estes management which wanted a less expensive NCRBE starter set than the originally released Phantom 4000 set.

The goal of the Orbit launch set was a mid-power launch set with an SRP under $100.00.

As with the Phantom 400 set no motors would be included.

It was planned to make the Orbit launch set an exclusive product for either Sam's Club or Costco.

The Modular Launch Pad was the same NCRBE unit already sold withthe Phantom 4000 set.

The High Impulse Launch Controller was planned to be a less expensive unit than the Command Controller sold with the Phantom 4000 set. While it was never produced the High Impulse controller was the design basis for the eventual Pro Series II launch controller.

TBC...


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