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-   -   FSI Delta Dart (http://www.oldrocketforum.com/showthread.php?t=16219)

jeffyjeep 09-10-2016 06:59 PM

FSI Delta Dart
 
Does anyone have information on the FSI Delta Dart? Photos and/or a catalog page scan would be most helpful.

Thanks!

Jeff

ghrocketman 09-10-2016 07:43 PM

Are you talking about the FSI Mach 1 Dart or some other FSI rocket called the "Delta Dart" ?
I have never heard of a FSI rocket called the "Delta Dart"
The Mach 1 Dart was a very small finned 21mm rocket that had a D20-7 in the sustainer and a F100-0 booster that had fins directly glued on the booster engine. The F100-0 booster slipped over the 21mm end of the D20-7.
Most doubt that this combination could actually hit Mach 1.

jeffyjeep 09-10-2016 08:00 PM

According to the guy that wants me to build it for him it's the FSI Delta Dart 2-stage model rocket. I'll ask him for photos of the kit.

the mole 09-10-2016 08:33 PM

I don't know if this is what you're looking for . Only thing I could find. Look on page 13.

http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/ca...SI_1988_Cat.pdf

jeffyjeep 09-10-2016 11:57 PM

Thanks. I don't know if it's that one either. He's supposed to send me photos of the kit tomorrow.

ghrocketman 09-11-2016 04:01 AM

He must be talking about the FSI Mach 1 Dart.
The ONLY way you can build the 'booster' is with an un-fired F100-0 engine.
The sustainer is easy....I think the FSI dimensioned parts are still Semroc-available.
I have F100-0 and D20-7 engines, but NONE are for sale at any price.

Doug Sams 09-11-2016 10:05 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
The ONLY way you can build the 'booster' is with an un-fired F100-0 engine.
Why is that?

Doug

.

Doug Sams 09-11-2016 10:19 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffyjeep
Does anyone have information on the FSI Delta Dart? Photos and/or a catalog page scan would be most helpful.
This sounds like a munge of a couple different kits. Estes had a near minimum diameter kit called the Delta Clipper (#2067). It used HBT-1080 tubing and flew on 24mm motors.

Anyone flying this kit should keep in mind that, on anything bigger than C motors, you'll want to be sure and take a pic...so you have something to remember it by :)

That is, I'm pretty sure it can be lost without the need for an FSI F100-0 :)


Doug

.

RWmarlow 09-11-2016 10:40 AM

FSI Dart
 
Hi Readers of this fine thread....

If you look at the Facebook FSI page you will find several pics of the FSI Dart and some other fun FSI info and pictures....I AM working on the long overdue page update

For adventures in spacemodeling, fly with F.S.I.

RW Marlow

ghrocketman 09-11-2016 11:10 AM

To answer Doug, the booster for the FSI Dart is the actual F100-0 ENGINE with fins glued directly on the cardboard engine casing. The entire booster is expendable...

I have looked through all my FSI catalogs and the ninfinger site as well.
There is no FSI kit called the "DELTA Dart" there is only the "Mach 1 Dart", which later was caltalogued as simply the "Dart"

jeffyjeep 09-11-2016 11:39 AM

I can't find a Delta Dart in any of my sources either. It's a mystery Scooby! All I can do now is wait for the guy that wants me to build it for him to send photos of the kit (if it really exists.)

As for as mounting fins directly to the engine: I would think the heat and possible expansion of the casing would weaken the joints.

jeffyjeep 09-11-2016 11:43 AM

Also, I don't know if I have the skills to build a model that can stay together at a (potential) speed of 1116 ft/sec!

jeffyjeep 09-11-2016 02:43 PM

SIGH! The guy with the Delta Dart kit changed his mind. I'm guessing he realized that he actually didn't have the kit--possibly because it never existed.

People are funny.

Oh well.

GO BEARS!!

ghrocketman 09-11-2016 03:54 PM

The heat on the F100-0 engine does not weaken the casing-direct fin joints as it has a very short 0.5 sec burn time and the cardboard casing is VERY thick. MANY were flown back in the day with just Titebond glue joints/fillets. The combo worked, but you needed a LARGE field and a good pair of tracking eyes for recovery.


The BEARS LOST ! Boo-EFFIN-Hoo !

jeffyjeep 09-11-2016 08:44 PM

I know! The Bears didn't score a single point in the entire second half. Pitiful.

They should have kept Gould and canned Cutler!

Joe Wooten 09-12-2016 06:18 AM

I bought and flew the Dart. twice. I never heard it break Mach 1, though a F100 launch was always exciting.

luke strawwalker 09-12-2016 09:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffyjeep
I can't find a Delta Dart in any of my sources either. It's a mystery Scooby! All I can do now is wait for the guy that wants me to build it for him to send photos of the kit (if it really exists.)

As for as mounting fins directly to the engine: I would think the heat and possible expansion of the casing would weaken the joints.


Well, it's only got to hold together until motor burnout... a couple seconds or so max...

Don't really think the heat has time to get through the casing and weaken the glue before it's all over. Cardboard tubing is not a real good conductor of thermal energy.

Later! OL J R :)

ghrocketman 09-12-2016 11:00 AM

The Bears definitely should have ditched Cutler. I have ALWAYS called him ROTler because he honestly is ROTTEN. He has always been a whiny little BYTCH.

jeffyjeep 09-12-2016 01:01 PM

The guy that contacted me about the "Delta Dart" changed his mind and wants me to scratch build a Centuri Black Widow (1980 pattern) instead.

Now THAT I can probably do.

jeffyjeep 09-12-2016 01:10 PM

.......that being said, does anyone have a scan of the Black Widow instructions? The instructions for the 1960's version are available he olde rocket plans, but I can't find the instructions for the 1980 version. It looks like Semroc has all of the parts I need--including a fin set and decals.

Any help will be appreciated.

Thanks! VR, Jeff

ghrocketman 09-12-2016 07:23 PM

Check Ninfinger for the later Black Widow plans...they probably have them.

jeffyjeep 09-12-2016 07:39 PM

I guess I never realized that the Ninfinger site had a plans section. Thanks, I'll check it out.

Vanel 09-12-2016 08:35 PM

Perhaps this thread?

http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/show...ght=black+widow

ghrocketman 09-12-2016 11:47 PM

My mistake...I meant to say JimZ Rocket Plans, NOT Ninfinger....sorry !

Shreadvector 09-13-2016 01:00 PM

The Delta Dart is a model airplane.


https://www.modelaircraft.org/shopa...CCE8A114932E126

ghrocketman 09-13-2016 01:51 PM

As Jerry stated above, the ONLY Delta Darts I'm aware of are model airplanes.
One is a small stick-and-tissue rubber-powered FF airplane marketed directly by the AMA and also by Sig.
The other one is a VERY CHEAP hand-launched molded foam piece of JUNK glider.

jeffyjeep 09-13-2016 02:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanel


Yes! It looks like this thread has the resources I need. Thank you all!

BTW, has anyone ever built one and does the glider/booster fly well?

Joe Wooten 09-13-2016 03:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffyjeep
Yes! It looks like this thread has the resources I need. Thank you all!

BTW, has anyone ever built one and does the glider/booster fly well?


If you trim it correctly, the booster glides quite well. Mine will make pretty tight circles and usually land within 100 feet of the launch pad on either a C5-0 or C6-0.

bob jablonski 09-14-2016 10:05 AM

On the dart booster sets I got the top of the F100 had a taper to make them more aerodynamic.
Mr. Bob
Countyline Hobbies
Grovertown, IN.
574-540-1123
countylinehobbies@yahoo.com
www.countylinehobbies.com

stefanj 09-14-2016 11:35 PM

According to carbon4, who worked at FSI, the "supersonic" booster F100-0 had another difference. There was a layer of black powder added on top, held in with nitrocellulose dope.

I suspect that the whole supersonic thing was a bit of a trick. The "boom" was really a "bang," of that charge going off and the tight-fitting D20 popping out.

tbzep 09-15-2016 07:06 AM

A sonic boom from such a small object is actually a crack and you have to stand a distance away from the pad to hear it. Near the pad, you are within "the cone of silence" according to agent 86. ;)

Shreadvector 09-15-2016 09:41 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanj
According to carbon4, who worked at FSI, the "supersonic" booster F100-0 had another difference. There was a layer of black powder added on top, held in with nitrocellulose dope.

I suspect that the whole supersonic thing was a bit of a trick. The "boom" was really a "bang," of that charge going off and the tight-fitting D20 popping out.


All F100-0 motors had a short delay and granular black powder (ejection charge material) held in with clear dope rather than the cardboard disc used on other FSI normal motors. The reason is that the F100-0 would not hold in the pressure of combustion without the delay grain on top of the propellant. The short delay was only a couple of seconds and did not affect any two-stage flights I made or saw (other than adding a bit of altitude).

Rocketflyer 09-15-2016 09:45 AM

FSI Dart
 
1 Attachment(s)
For those interested. Note: I'm pretty sure my memory is correct; the Dart had a hardwood nose cone.

Shreadvector 09-15-2016 11:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocketflyer
For those interested. Note: I'm pretty sure my memory is correct; the Dart had a hardwood nose cone.


Pine is a softwood.

Balsa is a hardwood.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardwood

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Softwood

"Softwoods are not necessarily softer than hardwoods. In both groups there is an enormous variation in actual wood hardness, with the range in density in hardwoods completely including that of softwoods; some hardwoods (e.g. balsa) are softer than most softwoods, while the hardest hardwoods are much harder than any softwood. The woods of longleaf pine, douglas fir, and yew are much harder in the mechanical sense than several hardwoods."

Rocketflyer 09-15-2016 01:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreadvector
Pine is a softwood.

Balsa is a hardwood.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardwood

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Softwood

"Softwoods are not necessarily softer than hardwoods. In both groups there is an enormous variation in actual wood hardness, with the range in density in hardwoods completely including that of softwoods; some hardwoods (e.g. balsa) are softer than most softwoods, while the hardest hardwoods are much harder than any softwood. The woods of longleaf pine, douglas fir, and yew are much harder in the mechanical sense than several hardwoods."


Well Fred, I don't recall the Dart having a Balsa nose cone, and I don't care what YOU, or Wiki says, balsa nose cones are soft.

ghrocketman 09-15-2016 02:15 PM

Just substitute the word "Sheldon" for "Fred", rocketflyer.
In most instances it is fitting as he often provides information that nobody cares about with a 'smarmy' attitude to boot.
EVERYBODY but FRED knows that the poster was pointing out the nose cone on the FSI Dart is made with a material that is HARDER than Balsa in both feel and workability, NOT some smart-a$$ed whack-job definition.

Rocketflyer 09-15-2016 02:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
Just substitute the word "Sheldon" for "Fred", rocketflyer.
In most instances it is fitting as he often provides information that nobody cares about with a 'smarmy' attitude to boot.
EVERYBODY but FRED knows that the poster was pointing out the nose cone on the FSI Dart is made with a material that is HARDER than Balsa in both feel and workability, NOT some smart-a$$ed whack-job definition.


Thanks gh, you said it all for me!

jdbectec 09-15-2016 02:17 PM

The earliest FSI kits did indeed have hardwood nose cones they were birch if I recall correctly. FSI listed them as hardwood cones in their catalog for as long as I can remember probably until they went out of business. They did switch to Pine in later years and Pine is technically a softwood. Trees with needles also known as conifers are considered softwood trees with leaves are considered Hardwoods the density of the word varies Balsa is the least dense Hardwood

tbzep 09-15-2016 06:26 PM

Beavis and Butthead would die of exhaustion laughing at all this talk of hard wood. :eek:

Rocketflyer 09-16-2016 07:22 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbzep
Beavis and Butthead would die of exhaustion laughing at all this talk of hard wood. :eek:


Heh, heh, he said hard wood, heh, heh.


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