Quest Composite Motors
 

I see on the eRockets site, Quest 18mm composite motors (Q-Jet). Currently out-of-stock.

http://www.erockets.biz/quest/

Greg

Were they ever IN stock? I don't recall ever seeing one..........

I think it's more like they soon will be in stock, or at least are expected/hoped. Nice prices. I can order mine the day before a launch and pick them up at eRockets. I feel like a fortunate son for a change. :rolleyes:

Interesting. That’s the same price as local mass marketers are selling the Estes As and Bs for in two packs.

Also interesting that they are certified by Tripoli and not NAR.

In any event it’s a sign that they will soon see the light of day. I like it.

I gotta ask this one....WHY would anyone want to pay $8.99 ($4.50 each) for two little composite B-motors ? Just for the novelty of they are composite ?
I guess I understand the B4-6 as that is no longer available from Estes.

I'm not paying $4/each for A motors or $4.50/each for B motors EVERRRRRRRRR.
You can get a 3-pak of Estes B motors at Hobby Lobby for about $6 ($2/each) when using the coupon.
I go there and pick up blast-off flight paks really cheap.

No Hobby Lobby I’ve ever been in has Blast Off packs....or I’d be all over that idea. They just have bulk A8-3s. I have an adequate supply for several years I think.

As for the Quest motors - in the listing on the Quest site for B4s there is an image of an instruction sheet with data about A, B, C and baby D motors including masses and thrust curves.

Those C8s look interesting, and the D12s could be thought of as Cs with a little something extra.....

This is interesting stuff to see as I’m sitting in the dining room of the hotel where NARCON begins this afternoon. I will have to see what I can glean from the vendor’s forum this evening.

(Roger and Bracha Smith from jonrocket.com are at the next table over and I came down in the elevator with Tim vanMilligan, so folks are beginning to turn up. I haven’t seen the Estes’ yet.)

The C8's could be interesting if they are a true 10n-sec as we all know Estes C's are only about 8n-sec. The C8 also has the high initial thrust profile of the old C5-3
The 13n-sec 18mm D12's would be great; it would effectively replace the great but LONG OOP 18mm Cox D that was about 12n-sec. Just right for something needing more than a full-C, but not needing/wanting a 20-nsec Aerotech 18mm D.
That 18mm D12 sounds like it would be a great motor for the Estes 1284 full-stack Space Shuttle and the Estes/Semroc Mars Lander.

Hi. :-)

Well, that is a bit of an unfair comparison. The $8.99 Quest price is full retail while the Hobby Lobby Estes price is steeply discounted. More accurate would be $4.50 per motor Quest FRP versus $3.60 per motor Estes FRP.

Still, I agree the A and B composites don't appear to offer a compelling price point for their performance. I'm much more interested to see the C8 and D12 composites when they come out.

It will also be interesting to see if anyone is able to sell the Quest composites at a significant discount like AC Supply and other vendors do with Estes motors.

According to Gary, they can be ordered from the Quest site tonight. Whether they sent an advance shipment to eRockets is not known.

The new Quest composite A and B motors are available on the Quest site in 2-paks and 25-paks.

I don't care if comparing discounted Estes motors to Quest composites is "fair" or not...all that matters to me is ACTUAL cost per n-sec. $4.50 for a 5n-sec B plus shipping is outrageous.
The C and D if close to that price may be worthwhile due to no other motors available currently like this C8 and D12 in that size.

With the D12 being only 2ns more than the C, will it be like the old D21/E24 thing, where eventually no one bought the E24 because it wasn't that much more powerful than the D21 ?

The Quest D12 only has a peak thrust of 3.5 lbs according to what Quest has posted.
The Estes C11 has a peak thrust of 4.88 lbs based on NAR testing.

The Quest motor has 3 n/s more total impulse because the initial spike doesn't drop off much, which is typical of a bates grain with the right dimensions. The Estes motor drops to about 2.5 lbs after the peak. It will be interesting to compare the two's ability to lift and keep a heavy rocket stable for nice low demo flights in tight areas.

The Estes C6 and C11 are only 9 n/s, which will help the D12 out a little, assuming the numbers aren't embellished. However, if it isn't competitive in price, it will be a niche motor. Folks needing a better performing 18mm C will buy it for their 18mm Mars Landers and maybe a few other heavy birds, but I doubt many folks will use it in a rocket that will take a 24mm C11.

The flyer that Gary is handing out says the As and Bs can be preordered starting 11:59 PM MST on March 2nd. He said at the vendor forum that they will start to ship in April.

In a conversation I had with him earlier today I got the impression that the C8 and D12 are somewhat further out and I noted to him that they both would fill a need for something that is currently not available at all (I was thinking Estes C5-3s as I said this).

He said in at the vendor forum that these were the hardest R&D project he’s had at Aerotech and that cost of manufacturing, so that they can be sold with “standard discounts” was a big factor. So that at least suggests that, for example, Hobbylinc could sell them for less than the SRP of $8 or two As and $9 for two Bs. But first they have to get out there at all.....

There was no mention of any shipments to eRockets - either by Gary or by Randy Boadway. I suppose I can ask Randy tomorrow if he expects any soon. But based on what’s on the flyer, Randy will have to order them starting on 3/2 as well.

I bought a bunch of mini-composites, I believe Apogee, at a NARAM once. I think I bought about half of what he had. Good little motors. They do things that cannot be replaced at any price.

18mm D's are miraculous for weenie rockets.

Just Jerry

http://v-serv.com/usr/motors/e10a.html

I would guess the vendors are getting their sites ready for the new motors. When they are in stock their ready to sell them.

Since Quest and Aerotech are believers in motor clips, they could make 3 lengths with current clips. 1.75", 2.75", 3.75". Furthermore they could make a version even longer that simply sticks out the back a bit and, gag, use the U.S. Rockets motor retention method for longer motors.

All our 18mm kits and conversions are compatible with any length motor.

I once bought a batch of 24mm E motors from Aerotech that didn't fit in standard motor tubes (BT-50, BT-9).

I am concerned we may be seeing that again with the Q-Jet brand motors.

From BMS I clipped the BT-20 clone tube dimensions.

T20-34 .736x.710x.013x34 Estes 18mm

0.710" ID

From the published spec sheet the new motors are 0.703" (presumably inclusive of the label), or total clearance of 0.007". This could be an issue in a well used tube or a humid launch site. Estes motors because they are pressed are thicker at the nozzle end than the ejection end and that small taper makes insertion easy. Maybe version 2 will have a slight bevel at the ejection end of the case.

From the document in post #15. News release at NARCON.

A couple of the cool things about the motors is they seem to be glue free (except label) and use the same cases for all SKU's.

I wonder if the nozzles are molded in as a 2nd op? Quest motor machine for new motor assembly?

Jerry

I have a pack of B4-6 motors that I won as a door prize at NARCON.

These are standard sized 18x70mm motors.

The cases are not cardboard, so they aren't going to swell.

They are composite motors, so they aren't "pressed" like blackpowder motors. They are not going to be bulged from compressing the propellant.

The aft end appears to have a modular delay train/ejection charge thingee glued in.

The nozzles appear to be some sort of clay. I was told the nozzle throat is 0.09-inches in the B4 motors. I did compare a fired case with a new case to check how much nozzle erosion occurred, but I did not have a way to measure it. Erosion looked like "a little bit." This is a much wider throat than the notorious old Apogee B7 motors. I asked Gary how he was able to increase the size of the nozzle throat, and he told me that it is a combination of using a hot, new composite propellant and grain geometry. He said that developing and testing these motors was a very time consuming and difficult project.

Can't wait to fly them.
-W

Quest composite motor availability
 

Gary talked a lot about the new composite motors at NARCON this past weekend. He says on-line ordering will begin in early March deliveries will start for the A/B motors in April. The C/D motors will follow in a couple of months, he said. He came to NARCON with a few packs to give away. Nice Enerjet throw-back label scheme.

Gary also said all of the motors are full impulse when tested at Aerotech, at 5000 ft MSL. When Tripoli/NAR test them near sea level they are a little less. I believe he said the motors are currently TRA certified but that he has sent the samples for testing to NAR as well.

Buzz McD.

I'm still trying to understand: what is the advantage of the composite A and B motors over Estes BP versions?

The Cs and Ds sound like they might be a little more interesting, but the As and Bs have me a little perplexed.

Agree with the A and B except for the B4-6. That engine is no longer produced by Estes.
I am really interested in that C8 (very similar to the old Estes C5) and that 13n-sec 18mm D12 that is very similar to the old Cox D8. Hopefully they will be priced around $4 each.
I would be really interested in the B if it was like the old B14.

They are FULL 2.5 N-s As and 5 N-s Bs at 5000-feet ASL elevation. Plus the A3-6 and B4-6 have delays that you can't get anywhere else. These performance attributes are desired by some people, particularly NAR and FAI competition fliers.

If all you want is to do some general flying, then I agree that there is no advantage.

I’d love to use that B4-6 in the center position in my B-cluster altitude model at NARAM but I doubt they will be NAR contest certified by then....not to mention the interesting problem of lighting that plus four other motors at the same time.

I hope to be pleasantly surprised. :D

In competition, their power level should be consistently higher. And the 6-second delay B should be useful to take advantage of that extra power.

Other than that, for the lay person, none at all.

In a retail store setting, the Quest motors may have a couple of advantages to attract the average customer.

The two-packs of Quest motors have a lower suggested price than the three-packs that Estes offers. Per motor, Estes will be cheaper, but some consumers will be looking for a lower price. And the Quest motors look different, perhaps cooler in the eyes of someone looking at them in a store.

Also, Quest is going to release some starter sets which include motors, something Estes hasn't done for a while.

At least in this area, there are two-packs of Estes 18mm motors in mass market stores which - at Fred Meyer - are the same prices as the SRP for the Quest motors. They are like the old Walmart three packs in that they have wadding included (unlike the hobby shop three packs which are also seen at Hobby Lobby or Fry's.)

There is an Astra III starter set on the Quest web site that should be available for pre-order on Friday per the flyer Gary was handing out.

If the consumers can get their hands on them they may prefer;

1) Black smoke

2) Easier ignition (assuming they ignite easier than Estes motors using the new "starters").

3) Pretty package and label.

Schools like bulk packs. There may be lots of sales, if Quest can get back their customers from many years ago. Or they can cultivate NEW customers at educator conferences (or the Rocket Fever event coming up in August - Hint Hint).

Gary posted the thrust curves, C11 and D15. Now those could be interesting
Mr. Bob

Where are they posted?

I'm not sure about a C11 and D15, but he posted thrust curves for a C14 and D16 on his FB page. I'll attach them below.

Oh, man. A D15 booster would utterly rock, even if it was 12ns.

In any case, high-thrust 18mm motors FTW. Those will be very handy.

I'm confused. The early posts described C8 and D12 and now we have thrust curves for C14 and D16?

Maybe they're going to make both? :D

That is what i inferred. BOTH.

With the investment in the casings it might be wise to produce a couple of slightly different motors in each power class that will appeal to different consumers for different applications.

BlackMax propellant for the first wave of motors. (A3, B4, C8, D12)

Maybe Super White Lightning for the second wave of higher thrust C and D motors?

ALL of these look wonderful and the F67 is extremely cool.

F67 ???
Where was that mentioned ?
That WILL be really cool if it "re-creates" the old Enerjet full 80n-sec F67 from the early 70's.
Us BAR-types like nostalgia.

USPS mailable (30 grams propellant), with high solids propellant and engineering wizardry to produce the most total impulse of any 30 gram model rocket motor.

NAR Contest Certified and shipping now.

Price is not too shabby.

Google it.

It,s not a full 80 newton second F like the old Enerjet. More along the lines of the old F100 or F97 . lower newton seconds but high thrust short burn.