View Single Post
  #23  
Old 02-06-2018, 11:03 PM
luke strawwalker's Avatar
luke strawwalker luke strawwalker is offline
BAR
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Needville and Shiner, TX
Posts: 6,134
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbzep
SpaceX vs Blue Origin

SpaceX
1st to space
1st to orbit
1st to reuse booster that did more than a bunny hop
1st to stick a landing from a "real flight"
1st to stick multiple landings (today)
1st to launch, orbit, and recover pressurized cabin
1st to deliver meaningful cargo
1st to orbit a car (Only NASA has done that one!)
1st to produce 5 million lbs of thrust
1st to have 27 +1 nominal engines kicking booty

Blue Origin
1st to stick a landing (by about a month, from a dinky bunny hop)
1st to reuse booster (from a bunny hop)


There is no space race between the two at this point. B.O. has a lot of catching up to do. Blue Origin fanboys will claim they aren't behind because they just have different goals, but SpaceX already has the heavy lift capability to launch hardware for either company's goals.


Yep... I like the *ideas* Blue Origin has, and their reusable suborbital tourist hop stuff looks intriguing, but that's not where the real future lies... SpaceX is on the cutting edge of what a "real" high frequency/high reusability low cost space infrastructure will look like...

*IF* Blue Origin gets "New Glenn" built and working, it'll just be playing catch-up with SpaceX. It'll be good to see, but sorta "BTDT", though the more at the party, the merrier.

Speaking of "catching", Elon talked in his press conference about their payload fairing recovery and reuse plans. He touched on the fact that recovering payload fairings is more difficult than they originally anticipated (what about space travel *ISN'T*???) because turns out that when you deploy parachutes or parasails or whatever to recovery a big bulky thing like a payload fairing half, turn out the airflow off the big bulky payload fairing creates all kinds of turbulence and eddies that mess with the 'chutes, twisting them up every which way. He thinks they have that problem "in the fix" stage and are anticipating recovering payload fairings intact by the end of the year. They are also building a new drone ship, as he described it, essentially "a gigantic catcher's mitt on pontoons" (or a barge, can't recall). He said that basically it was going to be deployed in the fairing recovery zone and was capable of sufficient speed and maneuverability to "run under and catch" the fairings under the parachutes before they splashed down into salt water. He said that also this same ship could be used to "catch" Dragon capsules before they hit the water, if NASA so chose... Not dunking capsules in salt water should help with reusability considerably I would think... (That should provide some interesting fodder for scale competition enthusiasts-- I could see SpaceX scale models spitting their split nose cone "fairings" at apogee and then "catcher's mitt" equipped RC vehicles maneuvering under them to 'catch' them before touchdown under chute for "mission points"...

Anyway, he also talked some about the "BFR" plans... Saw a thing on YouTube talking about BFR as a potential "trans-atmospheric vehicle" capable of launching on ballistic paths across continents or halfway around the world with flight times in minutes to an hour or two, from liftoff to touchdown-- board a SpaceX "BFR" in Florida or New York and land in Tokyo less than two hours later. Course that's a LONG way down the road, but they ARE thinking "in the right direction". Trans-Atmospheric Vehicle (TAV) travel would sidestep the problems plaguing intercontinental supersonic airliners entirely, and would fulfill a military desire to be able to land a group of soldiers anywhere on the planet within about 90 minutes of a launch... I could see the capability development being (in part) funded by the military to develop such a system.

SpaceX is basically making everybody else look like they're "standing still". Yes, Falcon Heavy is years overdue, but they've learned a LOT along the way. Elon said in his conference that the Heavy Project was nearly scrapped on several different occasions, because it was REMARKABLY more difficult than they first anticipated... and that it was ALL paid for and developed on THEIR OWN DIME, to the tune of about $500 million dollars. (Which is STILL a FAR, FAR CRY from just the *cost overruns* on NASA's scrapped systems like Ares I and Ares V, among MANY MANY others...) Falcon Heavy basically makes SLS "block 1" redundant... the only "real advantage" of SLS is the larger payload bay... but if they get their "BFR" concept to fruition, it will make even SLS "block 2" obsolete... As it is Falcon Heavy can lift as much cargo mass as SLS block 1, and SLS block 2 will take YEARS more development and many billions of dollars for new advanced boosters and ascent stages, plus a new "in space propulsion stage".

With a hydrogen-burning upper stage, Falcon Heavy could easily put SLS in the shade. Figure in the fact that SLS hardware is all designed to be used in "expendable" mode (it's SRB's will impact the ocean and sink, as will its SSME/RS-25's...) and the fact that SLS *WILL* be "breathtakingly expensive" and it's easy to see that SLS is basically redundant... Elon said that Falcon Heavy *could* perform a return to the surface of the Moon with a refueling in orbit, and 3 Falcon Heavy launches can orbit the same mass as a Saturn V. IF they can get operations up to feasible rates, such an approach would be much better and more affordable than SLS. Land landings or barge landings of complete first stages make most of these other recovery schemes like "jettisonable engine pods captured in midair under parachute by special recovery helicopters or aircraft" look rather antiquated... Let alone dropping stuff into the ocean under parachute-- I got the shivers when the view of the double booster landing at CCAFS was on my TV and I hooped and hollered, and nearly shouted, "THAT is how you should recover boosters, NASA!!! Not drop firecracker pipes into the drink and drag them back to shore with boats!" (Granted SRB "recovery and reuse" was innovative and cool in it's day-- BACK IN 1981!!! But heck that's been THIRTY-SEVEN YEARS AGO!!!-- NASA *could* and *should* have developed liquid fly-back boosters DECADES ago for shuttle!! (even if they had to use "winged" boosters to do it, as "return to land, hover and land upright" boosters weren't possible for lack of technology before now). I can't help thinking, though-- if SpaceX, an INDEPENDENT COMPANY, has managed to develop and perfect this stuff, *WHY* couldn't NASA, with it's "bottomless money supply" (compared to an independent company like SpaceX) and cutting edge scientists, engineers, facilities, and access to technology?? Just goes to demonstrate the advantages of a "business" versus a "bureaucracy"...

I have to give Blue Origin credit... their work on the BE-4 methane burning engine is good... we need options and BE-4 brings another workhorse to the table. That's always a good thing.

Truly amazing times we live in... OL J R
__________________
The X-87B Cruise Basselope-- THE Ultimate Weapon in the arsenal of Homeland Security and only $52 million per round!
Reply With Quote