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Originally Posted by mkrobel
Its gone through several paint jobs since I took that picture. Right now it has no fins, but it orignially in had 4 Saturn IB fins. I think Little Joe II fins might look ok on a flying version, and if they scaled okay, it might look pretty cool with 4, or maybe 6.
I have the whole F-1 exposed in the version I made, I think it might have looked better with some of it recessed into the body so that no so much of it is exposed.
Actually, some of the stuff you wrote about the Saturn C3 is what made me build the 2F1. The Apollo was short fueled for launch on Saturn IBs - it only had about 1/2 of the propellent load a CSM would carry atop a Saturn V, so that actually made me think that my 1F was not much of an advance. The 2F1 would/could carry a sizeable logistics module or orbital lab module to LEO and that would probably keep the G Load down.
Interesting thought about the Titan III made with all Titan II cores. Of course, that immediately made me think of a Saturn IF with 2 Titan II cores on it. And there was a concept to have the Titan II SLV use up to 8 Castor SRMS, like a Delta II.
I'll take a larger photo of the Saturn 1F and have it next to the Saturn 2F1 so you can compare them.
Mike
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Thanks for the pics mike! Those are nice builds.
I see your point about the single F-1 versus the double. The single would work and be somewhat of an upgrade, IF they'd used the F-1A with the 1.7 million pounds liftoff thrust, 2 million vacuum. That should buy you some pretty decent cargo capacity having an extra couple hundred thousand pounds of liftoff thrust. The other possibility that leaps to mind is keeping a PAIR of H-1's on the core with the regular F-1, which would actually get you a bit more payload, as it'd be up near 2 million pounds liftoff thrust. It also greatly simplifies roll control on the vehicle. It might also provide some interesting performance figures, as surely you'd have to shut down some of the engine(s) early... either shut down the two H-1's and continue on the F-1 for a bit until burnout, or shut the F-1 down and continue for quite a bit on the two H-1's... that would ensure roll control of the vehicle, and though it's suboptimal having to keep dragging the weight of the F-1 along, it'd almost be like a 'stage and a half' type vehicle. The H-1 and J-2 were roughly in the same ballpark for thrust, though of course H-1's ISP was much lower, being a kerolox engine versus a hydrogen powered engine like J-2. But shutting the F-1 down after say around 150-200 seconds of flight and continuing for another minute to about 100 seconds on the twin H-1's would really stretch the remaining fuel in the first stage, and at roughly double the thrust of the lone J-2 in the S-IVB above, it shouldn't really be underthrusted-- almost act like a second stage in between the first stage and the S-IVB! Once the thing reached propellant depletion, the H-1's are shut down, the first stage jettisoned, the J-2 on the S-IVB fired up, and the interstage jettisoned and off ya go.
Of course the twin F-1 could accomplish much the same thing with two engines instead of three. But it also couldn't be throttled, and the gees would get pretty nasty toward the end of first stage burn unless you shut one down and slewed the other one enough to thrust through the centerline, and just take the hit from the off-center thrust. Shuttle did it (off-center thrust) so it's certainly possible. It just seems a bit of a waste though, and IMHO now that I think about it, I have to wonder WHAT some of those guys were smokin', proposing FOUR twin-F-1 boosters on a Saturn V, with 13 F-1's firing at liftoff... I mean, come on... TWO boosters STILL gives you NINE F-1's at liftoff, more than the Nova C-8! Did they ever think SERIOUSLY they'd need THAT much boost!!!??? I'd love to see the acoustics maps for that monster-- geez... and if one ever blew up on the pad-- it'd take out everything east of Kissimmee! LOL
That's why it's REALLY surprising nobody just took a quick 'back of the envelope look and say "Ya know, a pair of SINGLE F-1 (A?) boosters on either side of a Saturn V gives you SEVEN F-1's at liftoff... that's gotta be pretty much enough. Four just seems superfluous. It'd also give you a pretty good first stage.
If you wanted to use the Apollo CSM on a Saturn 1 type vehicle, ie full SPS fuel load, then yeah you're right; you'd need the twin F-1 version, the single F-1 version, or the F-1/twin H-1 version. (Speaking of which, there's nothing saying it HAD to be H-1's flanking the F-1-- perhaps a kerosene LR-87 would have been better-- should have been plenty of them around after Titan I was retired! For that matter, grab all those old Titan I kerosene-fueled first stages and use them as strap-on boosters-- for Titan II Heavy, or heck bolt them to the side of the Saturn 1-F...
Shame to let em go to waste!) You can do a lot of interesting stuff with a 2 million pound + liftoff thrust vehicle and a full CSM... especially if you have the room/performance to carry some payload along with you (small hab module for extended missions like to L2 or geosynch orbit, cargo module for space station resupply, experiments platform, space station modules, etc...)
Yeah, I've seen the Titan II with Delta boosters-- got a pic of it I grabbed off NSF in one of the threads or other... I've also got a picture of the FOUR engine Titan II-- FOUR LR-87's instead of the usual two-- I think they called it "Barbarian"... I've even got a graphic of it with a pair of Titan III SRM's flanking it... now that would have been a beast!
SO, I guess that either of the variants, single or dual F-1's would have been equally viable or likely if they'd ever gone beyond the 'what if' stage... The 2 H-1's/1 F-1 version is kinda neat, and might have some interesting performance advantages (or might not, I don't have the know-how to really tell) but the biggest disadvantage is the two seperate engine types-- using H-1 forces you to keep them around, and if you have to use 2, might as well use 8 and leave the F-1's for Saturn V... so probably zero chance it would have ever happened even if it DID have good performance...
I like the paint pattern on your single F-1 version-- the thrust structure roll pattern is very "Jupiter missile-ish" LOL
I can see the logic of using Saturn IB fins on it, but personally I think the Saturn I Block II clipped delta fins look a lot better, using four of them instead of the 8 on the IB. Still, the 8 have character and add a bit of 'continuity' to the look of the thing... like more of an evolution of the IB, whereas the SI/BII fins might make it look like more of a throwback...
Later! OL JR