Ye Olde Rocket Forum

Go Back   Ye Olde Rocket Forum > The Golden Age of Model Rocketry > Model Rocket History
User Name
Password
Auctions Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts Search Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-08-2016, 01:22 PM
Gus's Avatar
Gus Gus is offline
7/21/61
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: North of Detroit
Posts: 2,223
Default Original Orville Carlisle Motor Questions

In doing some research I was looking at picutures and descriptions on the Smithsonian site. I noticed that the original Rock-A-Chute motors, made by Orville Carlisle himself were actually 13 mm motors ("Dimensions: Overall: 1/2in. x 3 3/8in. (1.3 x 8.57cm)"). The motors in the pictures below (from NASM) have printed labels so they were actual "production run" motors meant for sale, made by Orville himself, before G. Harry and before the motors made by Brown Manufacturing.

So a few questions:

Does anyone know why the switch was made from 13mm to 18mm?

Does anyone have any pictures of either these motors being used or the motor mounts of the earliest Carlisle rockets.

Does anyone know if the test models G. Harry initially got from Orville used these same 13 mm motors (I presume so since these were given to NASM by G. Harry).

Finally, does anyone have any idea what Orville Carlisles designations of "4-4" and "4-4-2" on the motors stood for?

Thanks,

Steve
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:  Rock-A-Chute 2 stage.jpg
Views: 100
Size:  320.7 KB  Click image for larger version

Name:  Rock-A-Chute.jpg
Views: 99
Size:  219.2 KB  

Last edited by Gus : 09-08-2016 at 01:51 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-08-2016, 01:52 PM
mojo1986's Avatar
mojo1986 mojo1986 is offline
Old Canuck Modeller
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Kingston, CANADA
Posts: 2,160
Default

Did you intend to post photos?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-08-2016, 01:59 PM
Gus's Avatar
Gus Gus is offline
7/21/61
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: North of Detroit
Posts: 2,223
Default

I did find this one picture from the Quest Model Rocketry Museum site that appears to show a 13mm motor in a short orange rocket (with white nosecone) in the lower left corner.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:  Rock-A-Chute 3.jpg
Views: 121
Size:  1.26 MB  
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-08-2016, 02:18 PM
jbuscaglia jbuscaglia is offline
Rusty-eyed Missile Man
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Hudson, MA
Posts: 175
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gus
In doing some research I was looking at picutures and descriptions on the Smithsonian site. I noticed that the original Rock-A-Chute motors, made by Orville Carlisle himself were actually 13 mm motors ("Dimensions: Overall: 1/2in. x 3 3/8in. (1.3 x 8.57cm)"). The motors in the pictures below (from NASM) have printed labels so they were actual "production run" motors meant for sale, made by Orville himself, before G. Harry and before the motors made by Brown Manufacturing.

So a few questions:

Does anyone know why the switch was made from 13mm to 18mm?

Does anyone have any pictures of either these motors being used or the motor mounts of the earliest Carlisle rockets.

Does anyone know if the test models G. Harry initially got from Orville used these same 13 mm motors (I presume so since these were given to NASM by G. Harry).

Finally, does anyone have any idea what Orville Carlisles designations of "4-4" and "4-4-2" on the motors stood for?

Thanks,

Steve


G. Harry wrote some articles on the "Early Days" that I remember reading in The Model Rocketeer back in the late '70s when he was the editor. I believe that similar articles may have also appeared previously in Model Rocketry Magazine. In one, Harry mentions that they switched to 18mm when they went to Brown because the cost would be much less since they could use existing tooling.
__________________
John Buscaglia
NAR 27366
SAM 63
CMASS Member
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-08-2016, 02:25 PM
Gus's Avatar
Gus Gus is offline
7/21/61
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: North of Detroit
Posts: 2,223
Default

OK, I found some pictures from G. Harry's original article in Mechanix Illustrated from October 1957 that show the motors, clearly 13 mm. I had no idea.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:  FullSizeRender.jpg
Views: 100
Size:  592.8 KB  Click image for larger version

Name:  FullSizeRender 2.jpg
Views: 81
Size:  486.2 KB  Click image for larger version

Name:  FullSizeRender 3.jpg
Views: 88
Size:  371.5 KB  
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-08-2016, 02:55 PM
Earl's Avatar
Earl Earl is offline
Apollo Nut
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 4,893
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuscaglia
G. Harry wrote some articles on the "Early Days" that I remember reading in The Model Rocketeer back in the late '70s when he was the editor. I believe that similar articles may have also appeared previously in Model Rocketry Magazine. In one, Harry mentions that they switched to 18mm when they went to Brown because the cost would be much less since they could use existing tooling.


That's what I recall from that series 'NAR Roots' that Harry wrote in the latter 70s, in the NAR magazine. As I recall, Harry said that Orv could make maybe a couple hundred motors per night at home, but that was not going to be enough for their hopeful sales once MMI went full commercial. Brown said he could make them the same size (13mm) if they wanted, but (as you alluded), he could make them cheaper by using the 18mm tubes from his standard fireworks stuff. So, 18mm it became.

Some years later of course, various manufacturers came back out with 13mm stuff, one in the mid-60s or so that only lasted a year or two (forget their name), and then with MRI/MPC, Estes, and Centuri. I guess the Centuri minis were probably closer -- overall-- to the original Carlisle motors, considering their original longer length.

So, Harry said in those articiles, that, somewhat unknowingly in that one simple decision, they 'set the standard' for model rocket motor size that most manufactures would follow for decades. But, I recall seeing somewhere a comparison photo of an original Brown motor side by side with 'modern' 18mm motors, and I swear that Brown motor appeared to be a bit shorter than the current-day standard. But, coulda just been the photo.

Earl
__________________
Earl L. Cagle, Jr.
NAR# 29523
TRA# 962
SAM# 73
Owner/Producer
Point 39 Productions

Rocket-Brained Since 1970

Last edited by Earl : 09-08-2016 at 04:02 PM. Reason: Fix'n Spellin'
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-08-2016, 04:37 PM
Chas Russell's Avatar
Chas Russell Chas Russell is offline
Retired Missile Technician
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 1,076
Default

G. Harry Stine wrote an article called "The First Model Rockets" that appeared in the May 1970 Model Rocketry magazine. He stated that the motors were 0.5" by 2.25" inches, which I think was the size that the later Centuri 13mm motors emulated. The "4" in the designation of the Carlisle motors was 4 Nt-sec. Stine stated that the 4-4-2 motor was the equivalent of a NAR Type B4-4.

His later article in the July 1971 MR magazine was titled "Engines Full Circle". The article includes a picture of the early Carlisle motor through the MPC 13mm Mini-jet motor. The move to 18mm apparently occured in the late 1957 to mid-1958 when the Brown motors were being made. He also states the he met Vern Estes in July '58.
At that time Stine was working with or for MPC and he was plugging rhe motors. I actually was working with Dr. Gregorek and helped static test the Mini-jets for certification along with George Pantalos and Doug Ball at Ohio State.

NARTS does make available a CD of scans of Model Rocketry magazine. My old computer would not open them. But I have the magazines in my lap...

Chas
__________________
Charles Russell, MSgt,USAF (ret.)
NAR 9790, Lvl 1
SAM "Balls Three"
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-08-2016, 04:43 PM
Chas Russell's Avatar
Chas Russell Chas Russell is offline
Retired Missile Technician
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 1,076
Default

http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/rockets.html

Link to the Ninfinger website. Under "Other Companies" he has that link to Model Rocketry magazine. I thought it was there, but missed it on the first look.

Enjoy!
__________________
Charles Russell, MSgt,USAF (ret.)
NAR 9790, Lvl 1
SAM "Balls Three"
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-08-2016, 07:35 PM
tbzep's Avatar
tbzep tbzep is offline
Dazed and Confused
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: TN
Posts: 11,610
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chas Russell
http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/rockets.html

Link to the Ninfinger website. Under "Other Companies" he has that link to Model Rocketry magazine. I thought it was there, but missed it on the first look.

Enjoy!

Making it quicker:

MR mag list
http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/Mo...elRocketry.html

May 1970
http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/Mo...02n08_05-70.pdf

July 1971
http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/Mo...03n09_07-71.pdf



.
__________________
I love sanding.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:51 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Ye Olde Rocket Shoppe © 1998-2024