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  #1  
Old 07-22-2014, 05:27 PM
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Default Study Summary- Sls Mission Requirements And Reference Vehicle Technical Data

Here's an interesting short document listing some of the specifications and design requirements for the SLS vehicle, specifically relating to potential bidders for the Advanced Boosters contract. The document and summary give some facts and information about the SLS, and the snipped pics from the study give various specifications and information about the launch pad and vehicles as currently envisioned. There's also information in the report about the size limits of any Advanced Boosters and why those limits apply.

Enjoy! OL JR
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Old 07-23-2014, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luke strawwalker
Here's an interesting short document listing some of the specifications and design requirements for the SLS vehicle, specifically relating to potential bidders for the Advanced Boosters contract. The document and summary give some facts and information about the SLS, and the snipped pics from the study give various specifications and information about the launch pad and vehicles as currently envisioned. There's also information in the report about the size limits of any Advanced Boosters and why those limits apply.

Enjoy! OL JR

they have already changed the upper stage configuration so the manned version looks different http://www.nasa.gov/sls/multimedia/...ml#.U8_oa7EprsU I have been trying to track down dimensions, but the SLS thread on nasaspaceflight are so huge, I have not been able to find the data...If I am understanding the changes, the upper stage will now be produced by ESA? I had not been following the SLS threads regularly after the Constellation fiasco.
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Old 07-23-2014, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketguy101
they have already changed the upper stage configuration so the manned version looks different http://www.nasa.gov/sls/multimedia/...ml#.U8_oa7EprsU I have been trying to track down dimensions, but the SLS thread on nasaspaceflight are so huge, I have not been able to find the data...If I am understanding the changes, the upper stage will now be produced by ESA? I had not been following the SLS threads regularly after the Constellation fiasco.


I think that's the ICPS, the "Interim Cryogenic Propulsion Stage", which is basically a modified Delta Cryogenic Upper Stage (DCUS). It's capable of pushing a stripped Orion through TLI for a LOOP around the Moon, but has insufficient propellant to drop the Orion into low lunar orbit (LLO) or to accelerate it back out through Trans-Earth Injection (TEI) to return to Earth. Orion itself doesn't have the propulsive capability of entering or leaving lunar orbit alone either, so the best we can do, whenever and if-ever any of this ever really flies, some 50-years after the original lunar landing, will be a LOOP around the Moon on a free-return trajectory ala Zond 5 or Apollo 13; we won't even be capable of repeating Apollo 8. Pretty pathetic.

The SERVICE MODULE for Orion has been farmed out to the Europeans to construct; they're modifying the ATV propulsion system and other systems into a makeshift SM for Orion, since NASA seems incapable of doing the job, or at least has no funding for it. ESA is only contracted to deliver TWO Orion SM's though, so how much can you do with that?? I guess NASA doesn't want to chain themselves down if they don't like the European modules. Europe is betting that NASA will be satisfied and they'll get a bigger contract to produce them down the road.

SO, while our own space sector withers away, we finance our competitors in developing new capabilities... even if NASA ultimately doesn't order more of the SM's or cancels them before delivery, we'll have financed the capability for the EU, or at least given them the impetus to do it... it puts them one step closer to their own manned spaceflight capability, which actually probably is a good idea at this point... having an SM already developed would certainly make constructing a manned spacecraft more attractive, since part of the development would already be done, for the propulsion and power generation requirements at least... they'd "just" need the capsule and its systems... (which granted is still like about 80% of the work at least).

Haven't heard ANYTHING about the upper stage, period. The last I read, the wrangling over the "advanced boosters" was still in limbo, with the various competitors still talking about the capabilities of their systems. If the F-1B powered "Pyrios" boosters were chosen, from what I've heard, they could get SLS to the 130 tonne mark WITHOUT THE NEED for a dedicated second stage with multiple J-2X's, as the NASA "reference SLS Block 2 vehicle" currently has. The ATK "Black Knight" carbon composite cased advanced SRB's on the other hand, could not achieve the 130 tonne goal without a dedicated upper stage equipped with multiple J-2X engines. That would be a HUGE benefit to choosing the F-1B LRB's, but politically speaking, it's almost assured that ATK will get the contract to build more SRB's, no matter how stupid a choice that might be... As for the second stage that will require, well, NO money has been allocated for that anyway... it's all just "notional" AFAIK...

Anything's possible I suppose, but it doesn't make much sense to farm out the upper stage to the Europeans. Any upper ASCENT STAGE (second stage) would need the high thrust J-2X engines, which are US engines. The Europeans don't have anything that powerful (Vinci on Ariane V is good, but not as high a thrust... part of the reason the "Liberty" vehicle using an SRB topped with an Ariane V core for an upper stage is just pretty rocket porn IMHO... Ares I used the J-2X with higher thrust and a bigger upper stage, and was STILL underpowered!) I guess it could be possible to farm out the tanks and structures work to Europe and then integrate US built J-2X's onto them to make completed stages over here, or ship J-2X's to Europe and have them ship back completed stages, something like that... but it's really stupid and doesn't make much sense... The whole point is to fund US favorite NASA contractors in the "right Congressional districts" in the "space states"; what does farming out that development to the Europeans get you in political benefits?? None that I can see...

It's a huge mess and just getting worse, not better... We're building SLS, but have NO payloads for it (other than stripped Orion) and even the SM is having to come from overseas... no plan, no destination, just lots of big talk... And of course NONE of it will work past a few test flights (or so) without several ALL NEW BILLION DOLLAR development programs for advanced boosters and/or a big upper second stage for ascent, PLUS the much larger "CPS" (Cryogenic Propulsion Stage) for in-space propulsion... which will be necessary for performing TLI or any other in-space propulsion requirements, ESPECIALLY if any mission is to take place with an Orion and ANY other module (none of which are currently funded or in development). Basically CPS is the modern equivalent of the "S-IVB" third stage of Saturn V... without the S-IVB, we couldn't have gone to the Moon... so it is with SLS, although they are developing the "ICPS" by modifying the Delta stage for it... but it's not big enough to push anything beyond Orion by itself... unless you want to do multiple launches and each "mission module" (again, none of which are funded anyway) through TLI on their own using their own ICPS stages...

I've gotten pretty disgusted with the whole NASA/spaceflight mess since Constellation imploded too. I was following SLS pretty close for awhile, but it became readily apparent it was just a retread of Ares V, the so-called "son of Ares V" and the plans are still as nebulous, directionless, nonsensical, and underfunded or downright UNFUNDED as always... IMHO I agree with the folks that tend to think that SLS is just a placeholder-- a big gubmint development project that is keeping the "space state contractors" funded with gubmint pork, satisfying the Congressvermin and their lobbyists and the big NASA contractors desiring to "build something"... it's serving the political purpose, so who cares if it ever flies or not. Heck even by NASA's own admission, even if SLS works perfectly as advertised, it's ONLY going to fly about once every 2-3 years... and it's going to be expensive-- VERY expensive. NASA won't talk numbers, but folks "in the know" doing "back of the envelope" figuring based on shuttle costs (which will be less than the new systems to be sure) figure it's going to be at least a BILLION bucks PER LAUNCH, JUST for the SLS ALONE... not including payload or mission costs. At that price, NASA won't be able to afford to fly the d@mn thing anyway. Lots of folks consider that NASA and Congress are operating in "dream mode" and proceed with SLS because they have to be "doing something" but when the REALITY hits, SLS will be canceled, maybe after a couple test flights or so, and then they'll build "something else". At any rate, NASA won't be doing much of anything with SLS for most of a decade after the thing flies (if it flies) simply because it will take YEARS for any mission modules that ARE eventually approved and FUNDED to actually be designed, built, tested, and be ready to actually fly on a mission. While that happens, SLS will be soaking up hundreds of millions per year just in SUSTAINMENT COSTS, just to maintain the capability to produce them, while NOTHING FLIES... just like during the post-disaster shuttle stand-downs after Challenger and Columbia, when nothing flew for years but NASA still had to pay guys to "polish wrenches" and keep the lights on in facilities not being used just to maintain the capability of returning to flight... IIRC SRB program sustainment costs alone were in the neighborhood of $40 million a year during the stand-downs... and you have a major program for EVERY ELEMENT of the system... Basically what it boils down to, is it costs you almost as much to "maintain the capability" without flying as it does to actually fly... the actual hardware is the cheap part-- maintaining the capability to build, test, transport, integrate, launch, and operate it is the expensive bit... and you have to pay that regardless of whether you fly or not, unless you cancel the program...

I haven't been following it anywhere near as closely as I have in the past... It sort of reminds me of the "phony war" phase in WWII in the winter of 1939... England and France had declared war on Germany, but nothing was happening... sitting in border defenses watching over the walls at each other... the Germans called it the "Sitzkrieg"... LOL That's just how this whole "post Constellation SLS development phase" feels like... Heck we don't even have a program name now, since Constellation was cancelled...

later! OL JR

Later! OL JR
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Old 07-23-2014, 02:21 PM
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The Houston Chronicle recently posted an interesting 3-part series about the adrift NASA: http://www.houstonchronicle.com/nasa/adrift/1/

With increasing tension with Russia, we need to expedite plans to man-rate the Dragon. But politicians continue with the roadblock: http://www.houstonchronicle.com/new...for-5534818.php

Hopefully, the entire Senate and the House will not succumb to this ploy.


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Old 07-23-2014, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill
Hopefully, the entire Senate and the House will not succumb to this ploy.
The D Senate is hopelessly politically controlled by the D White House and in massive deadlock caused by D ML Reid himself. His last hurrah. BF*cker.
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Old 07-23-2014, 04:01 PM
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Here's some of the proposals that have come out for the Advanced Booster competition...

Enjoy! OL JR
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Old 07-23-2014, 04:08 PM
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And some more...

OL JR
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Old 07-23-2014, 04:14 PM
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And a few more still...

OL JR
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Old 07-23-2014, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Irvine
The D Senate is hopelessly politically controlled by the D White House and in massive deadlock caused by D ML Reid himself. His last hurrah. BF*cker.
BTW Obamacare (aka ACA) will be saved by the "nuclear option" installed by the D Senate under Reid personally in the past couple of months.

Just Jerry
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Old 07-23-2014, 05:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Irvine
The D Senate is hopelessly politically controlled by the D White House and in massive deadlock caused by D ML Reid himself. His last hurrah. BF*cker.




I'd much rather have Reid as majority leader than Schumer, which would have been the case had Reid lost reelection.

So what will become of the "nuclear option" if the Republicans win the Senate in November?

Will Reid repeal it in the waning days of his reign? Will the Republicans repeal it or let it live on in hopes of winning the White House in '16?


Bill
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Please unload your question before you ask it unless you have a concealed harry permit.

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