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  #51  
Old 01-20-2014, 08:48 AM
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blackshire blackshire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Irvine
I am not sure if the current safety code says it, but one specifically said testing not fully compliant with all rules could be conducted in isolation.

And if it and NFPA-1122 doesn't say that through the various "codifications", we have lost a right, not priviledge, we had and safely exercised for decades, in the name of "perceived safety".
That's true--the Safety Code mentions (or did mention--I'm looking at the 1994 Sixth Edition of Stine's "Handbook of Model Rocketry" right now) the following:

"12. Prelaunch Test. When conducting research activities with unproven model rocket designs or methods I will, when possible, determine the reliability of my model rocket by prelaunch tests. I will conduct the launching of an unproven design in complete isolation from persons not participating in the actual launching." But:

To be brutally honest, I don't give a rat's rump whether some piece of paper somewhere says that I have--or don't have--a right to do anything (in model rocketry or life in general). If I want to do something, and it will harm no one else (because I'm doing it by myself, in this case), I will do it. I am not a Wiccan, but I live by their Rede, which (in modern English) says: "If it harms none, do what you wish."
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  #52  
Old 01-20-2014, 11:04 AM
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Jerry Irvine Jerry Irvine is offline
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I give a rat's rump when folks in an egotistical rage make up rules to restrict others for no other reason than they can, or for reasons of superior morality, that frankly does not exist.

That explains most of NFPA-1122, NFPA-1125, NFPA-1127, all written by holier than thou rocket folks. I know. I was in the room a good part of the time.

Ask yourself this of one particular example. If you have made the effort to get 1500g/125g passed through to FAA and now you are writing NFPA codes and NAR safety codes, why in hell would you both allow 125g motors and also restrict same to 160N-s? Just one of many examples in the regs of arbitrary and silly rules.

How about NFPA-1125 that excludes vertical mixers, the ones most rocket companies and folk actually use, from permissibility. Guess who uses shakers? AT. Guess who packs their propellant? Estes. The companies most consistently represented on the NFPA committee "because there isn't room for more commercial reps".

Really? Really.
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Exemptions not regulations. Please support DOT treating slow burning solids as not subject to HMR. 2015 NAR President declines!
U.S. Rockets instaship. http://bit.ly/1aca7mA Please buy some rockets.
The O administration believed in tax, spend, borrow, fine, mandate, monologue. D voters will soon be very happy with the election outcome!
Model rocketry is as safe as safe can be defined in human existence. Bow and pray: GH Stine, Orville, Vern, Lee, Lonnie, Carl, etc. No, really.
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  #53  
Old 01-20-2014, 11:23 AM
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blackshire blackshire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Irvine
I give a rat's rump when folks in an egotistical rage make up rules to restrict others for no other reason than they can, or for reasons of superior morality, that frankly does not exist.

That explains most of NFPA-1122, NFPA-1125, NFPA-1127, all written by holier than thou rocket folks. I know. I was in the room a good part of the time.

Ask yourself this of one particular example. If you have made the effort to get 1500g/125g passed through to FAA and now you are writing NFPA codes and NAR safety codes, why in hell would you both allow 125g motors and also restrict same to 160N-s? Just one of many examples in the regs of arbitrary and silly rules.

How about NFPA-1125 that excludes vertical mixers, the ones most rocket companies and folk actually use, from permissibility. Guess who uses shakers? AT. Guess who packs their propellant? Estes. The companies most consistently represented on the NFPA committee "because there isn't room for more commercial reps".

Really? Really.
Although it would require some changes to your business model, you could just ignore them. John Wickman teaches people how to make their own motors (to whatever specifications they desire), which they do in his course. You could put the fear of God into those holier-than-thou folks by saying, "Oh well, since you all are being so hard-arsed about this, I'll just have to start selling motor-making kits," as that's the *last* thing they would want! When the mandarins write rules...ignore, disobey, resist, and go around them.
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http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
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  #54  
Old 01-20-2014, 08:50 PM
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Jerry Irvine Jerry Irvine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
Although it would require some changes to your business model, you could just ignore them. John Wickman teaches people how to make their own motors (to whatever specifications they desire), which they do in his course. You could put the fear of God into those holier-than-thou folks by saying, "Oh well, since you all are being so hard-arsed about this, I'll just have to start selling motor-making kits," as that's the *last* thing they would want! When the mandarins write rules...ignore, disobey, resist, and go around them.
First of all, no. But what's funny about that suggestion is I already did it once when I started HPR. I had to go through all the usual steps. Encourage clubs, vendors, manufacturers and field based clubs to form. It took 6 years with the help of a magazine and direct mail effort. I had up to 22k users H+. TRA/NAR is combined about 5k and that is over 30 years later. That is because all the interested parties, being manufacturers and clubs, installed onerous regulations and didn't even allow its members to enjoy the federal rules range.

I suppose I could start an entire industry again with whatever rules suited me, but current vogue is a website clientel.

Also the existing channel is entrenched.

We simply need more launch sites and clear guidelines on rocket size/altitude limits.

http://v-serv.com/usr/safetycodes.htm

I just want rules that allow Big Dumb Rockets.

http://v-serv.com/FAA/BDR/

Reg Jerry



Even Shecter had to max out the retail channel and buy web.

It might actually be easier to do a NSL report on it, declare it the 2014 Blue Ribbon Commission, and see what NAR spearheads.

As a vendor I have 3-4 suggestions that would at minimum double the active market. That would help everyone and even leave room for new entrants.
__________________
Exemptions not regulations. Please support DOT treating slow burning solids as not subject to HMR. 2015 NAR President declines!
U.S. Rockets instaship. http://bit.ly/1aca7mA Please buy some rockets.
The O administration believed in tax, spend, borrow, fine, mandate, monologue. D voters will soon be very happy with the election outcome!
Model rocketry is as safe as safe can be defined in human existence. Bow and pray: GH Stine, Orville, Vern, Lee, Lonnie, Carl, etc. No, really.
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  #55  
Old 01-21-2014, 08:40 AM
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blackshire blackshire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Irvine
First of all, no. But what's funny about that suggestion is I already did it once when I started HPR. I had to go through all the usual steps. Encourage clubs, vendors, manufacturers and field based clubs to form. It took 6 years with the help of a magazine and direct mail effort. I had up to 22k users H+. TRA/NAR is combined about 5k and that is over 30 years later. That is because all the interested parties, being manufacturers and clubs, installed onerous regulations and didn't even allow its members to enjoy the federal rules range.

I suppose I could start an entire industry again with whatever rules suited me, but current vogue is a website clientel.

Also the existing channel is entrenched.

We simply need more launch sites and clear guidelines on rocket size/altitude limits.

http://v-serv.com/usr/safetycodes.htm

I just want rules that allow Big Dumb Rockets.

http://v-serv.com/FAA/BDR/

Reg Jerry



Even Shecter had to max out the retail channel and buy web.

It might actually be easier to do a NSL report on it, declare it the 2014 Blue Ribbon Commission, and see what NAR spearheads.

As a vendor I have 3-4 suggestions that would at minimum double the active market. That would help everyone and even leave room for new entrants.
I agree; I don't advocate chaos (*no* rules), but ones that make sense--ones that model "If it doesn't harm anyone, do what you wish." Also:

There is a working example of what you wrote above--Amateur Radio. It was first thought by "the powers-that-be" (and not just in the USA) that hams would, intentionally or not, interfere with standard (AM) and Shortwave broadcasters, but (with the exception of a very few "outlaw" operators) this has turned out not to be the case. This is largely because the rules are "generous" enough to not make piracy almost *necessary* (as is the case with the much more restrictive CB radio rules)--when you can legally use up to 1500 watts of transmitter output power (which exceeds that of many small AM radio stations), there's no real incentive for breaking the rules. Also:

Amateur radio operators are permitted to use home-built, self-designed radio equipment, and even though the risk of electrocution and lethal or disfiguring RF (Radio Frequency) burns is quite real, especially at high transmitter power levels, in practice this is extremely rare. Just as a model/HP rocketeer is more likely to get hurt falling from a tree while trying to retrieve a rocket, ham radio operators are most often injured in falls while working on outdoor antennas.
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Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
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  #56  
Old 01-21-2014, 11:59 AM
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Fuse Eh! Fuse Eh! is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JStarStar
Vern Estes and to some extent G. Harry Stine catch a lot of heat on some forums for allegedly heavy-handed tactics in steering model rocketry in the 1960s toward their own personal vision, which some consider overly regimented and safety-obsessive.

The only problem with that is if the sport had continued its 1950s/"October Sky" direction from the days of Sputnik and into the space-obsessed Sixties, there would have been a huge number of additional kids, most not really all that competent, mixing up propellant in their basements and producing mushroom clouds in their garages.

Which mainly would have resulted in a lot of additional laws and regulations (think CA rocketry laws on steroids) all over the country and for most of us the only rockets we would have gotten to launch would have been water-bottle rockets.

It's probably better that HPR and EX did not make major advancements until the 1980s or so, by which time most of the goofy kids from the Sixties were in their 30s or so and their first instinct in terms of building a rocket was not to go down to the basement and try to mix 5 pounds of propellant in Mom's fondue kit.

It's probably better that that subdivision of the sport developed when the majority of people taking it up for the first time were likely to be adults who had had some interest in the subject matter for a good number of years.


During the earliest and most formative days of my rocketry interest my father gave me two books:
Rocket Manual For Amateurs by Capt. Bertrand R. Brimley
Handbook of Model Rocketry by G. Harry Stine

I credit the fact that I still have both eyes, ten fingers and at least some of my original hair to the fact that one book was more influential than the other in terms of guiding the ultimate direction my creative endeavours took.

That being said, a "small test rocket" designed by RRS and made of an aluminum cigar tube and a CO2 cartridge jammed with zinc and sulphur (pg. 160ff) still sounds like a lot of fun!

Kidding!!
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  #57  
Old 01-22-2014, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuse Eh!
During the earliest and most formative days of my rocketry interest my father gave me two books:
Rocket Manual For Amateurs by Capt. Bertrand R. Brimley
Handbook of Model Rocketry by G. Harry Stine

I credit the fact that I still have both eyes, ten fingers and at least some of my original hair to the fact that one book was more influential than the other in terms of guiding the ultimate direction my creative endeavours took.

That being said, a "small test rocket" designed by RRS and made of an aluminum cigar tube and a CO2 cartridge jammed with zinc and sulphur (pg. 160ff) still sounds like a lot of fun!

Kidding!!


Those little CO2 cartridge rockets worked quite well. Our dad's helped us make the bigger ones We would travel all the way down to the salt marshes, by Sea Isle, to launch. Only segulls nearby. After first launch, had the local cops show up. Thank heavens for a few dads being there. I think we kids would have been sent to juvie hall.
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  #58  
Old 01-24-2014, 11:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
Thou art in luck this day, O mortal, forsooth! (I think that's the way unicorns are supposed to talk...) Both of Paul Del Gatto's books (which contain the Jetex-powered Dyna-Soar model plans), "All About Jetex" and "Building / Designing, Maintenance & Care of Jetex Engines for Models" are available from Rocket Science Books (see: www.rocketsciencebooks.com ), who also offer these and other books of theirs on eBay. These are high-quality reprints on archival paper, *not* photocopies. Also, here is the article (with model plans) on the Jetex-powered Snark scale model, from the April 1958 issue of Science and Mechanics magazine (see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/sn...ans/snark1.html ). Gift offerings of pomegranates will be accepted at your convenience... :-)



I trid to reply to this earlier, but I never saw it show up here. Guess the computer gremlins must have eaten it. Am on my way to check out Rocket Science Books. sounds lik my kind of place!

The pomegranetes will have to wait a while. Right now it is about five degrees below zero (F) here, and Pomegranates are impossible to find. Will get back to you on this when pomegranate harvest time rolls around again. In the meantime, "Thanks!" is the best I can do.

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  #59  
Old 01-25-2014, 01:21 AM
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blackshire blackshire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireman
I trid to reply to this earlier, but I never saw it show up here. Guess the computer gremlins must have eaten it. Am on my way to check out Rocket Science Books. sounds lik my kind of place!

The pomegranetes will have to wait a while. Right now it is about five degrees below zero (F) here, and Pomegranates are impossible to find. Will get back to you on this when pomegranate harvest time rolls around again. In the meantime, "Thanks!" is the best I can do.

The Fireman
'Tis fine, as I surmised that the alternative, virgins, might be misperceived by some other readers... :-) You're most welcome. They have many rare books, such as Unusual British Solid Propellants and the Jets & Models Guide (which covers Jetex and pulsejet model planes, including pulsejet-powered B-57 and F-84 scale kits!).
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Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
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