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  #1  
Old 12-29-2016, 09:54 PM
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K'Tesh K'Tesh is offline
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Lightbulb [FOUND] Scan of Estes BBZ fins and decals w/ruler

JimZ site has the instructions , and the decals, for Estes Blue Bird Zero (1335). However the drawings of the fins don't cut it for me. I'd like to get a scan of the fins either in the matrix, or out w/a ruler for my sim of it. If the fins are out of the matrix, the ruler against the root edge works best. The decals aren't measured either, so they can't be scaled properly for the sim.

Semroc's BBZ is not a direct clone, and thus won't work for my purposes.
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Dreaming of making the rockets I dreamed of as a kid (and then some).

"The Guide says there is an art to flying", said Ford, "or rather a knack."
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Launching is Optional... Landing? That Depends on Trees.

Last edited by K'Tesh : 10-26-2017 at 03:04 PM.
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  #2  
Old 12-30-2016, 02:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K'Tesh
Semroc's BBZ is not a direct clone, and thus won't work for my purposes.


Carl always seemed pretty fanatical about making faithful reproductions. How does the Semroc Bluebird Zero differ from the Estes version?
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  #3  
Old 12-30-2016, 02:40 AM
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K'Tesh K'Tesh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gus
Carl always seemed pretty fanatical about making faithful reproductions. How does the Semroc Bluebird Zero differ from the Estes version?

Have you ever read the instructions of a Semroc Retro Reproduction?

They were designed to capture the essence of the kit, and are not a direct copy. As such the fins are typically altered to avoid the legal repercussions of selling a copy.

http://www.oldrocketforum.com/attac...achmentid=45732

While the image I've linked to isn't of the BBZ's plans, you can see what Carl wrote about the Retro-Repro line.
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Dreaming of making the rockets I dreamed of as a kid (and then some).

"The Guide says there is an art to flying", said Ford, "or rather a knack."
"The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."


Launching is Optional... Landing? That Depends on Trees.

Last edited by K'Tesh : 12-30-2016 at 06:37 AM.
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  #4  
Old 12-31-2016, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K'Tesh
...
They were designed to capture the essence of the kit, and are not a direct copy. As such the fins are typically altered to avoid the legal repercussions of selling a copy.

K'Tesh,

I have very fond memories of Carl and one of the things I most admired about him was his engineer's desire to "get it right." Carl made significant effort to make Semroc's Retro-Repro kits as exact to the original as he could. In fact, on many occasions he borrowed kits from a number of us on this forum to be sure his versions were dimensionally accurate. I also remember a number of conversations we had about which version of a kit he would replicate (plastic vs balsa nosecone shape, etc.).

But to be sure I wasn't misremembering I contacted Bruce as to whether the kits were intentionally altered from the originals. This is what he responded:

"No they were to original spec. We changed some materials in the kits of course to make them better like adding Kevlar and such. The instructions were never copied they were all done from scratch to make them better. The kits had not been produced for many years so they did not have them in commerce which meant they were available. Most of the dies and all parts and instructions were thrown away by Estes. Never any legal battles for us."

So if you find that the Semroc kit fins for the Bluebird Zero are different from the original Estes kit, I'd be very surprised.

-my thanks to Bruce for his response and to his Mom and Dad for all the great memories they provided.

Steve
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  #5  
Old 12-31-2016, 12:25 PM
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K'Tesh K'Tesh is offline
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Hi Steve,

Let's just be clear, I'm not trying to put down Carl, or Semroc. If I have a gripe with anyone, it's the people whose .rkt files on RocketReviews are just plain wrong. Fins that are clearly the wrong shape, nosecones that have profiles that don't match the real thing.

While I don't have a BBZ's fins to demonstrate this, I do have the Estes/Semroc Omega kits that I've worked on.

Based on scans (I made personally) of Estes original K-52P fins, the dimensions I've got are as follows.

Sustainer's fins:
Root Edge .. 3.125"
Span .......... 2.31"
Tip Edge....... 2.063"

Booster's Fins:
Root edge .. 3.625"
Span ............ 2.813"
Tip Edge ..... 2.563"


Compared to the Semroc Omega (KV-64)'s fins (based on a .pdf pattern provided by Randy Boadway):

Sustainer's fins:
Root Edge .. 3.1"
Span ............ 2.309"
Tip Edge ..... 2.019"

Booster's Fins:
Root edge .. 3.6"
Span ............ 2.555"
Tip Edge ..... 2.546"


Sure the differences aren't that great, but that's not what I'm trying to achieve here. I'm trying to create the definitive simulation of the kit as it originally appeared.

I'll state this again (not directed at anyone in particular)... Cloning kits that are in production is uncool. Support our vendors, if they go bust, we all lose.

I'll also toss in a thank you to Carl, Sheryl, and Bruce Mclawthorn, and Randy Boadway, as well as the people of Estes who have all provided us with so many fond memories.

Happy New Year!
Jim
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Dreaming of making the rockets I dreamed of as a kid (and then some).

"The Guide says there is an art to flying", said Ford, "or rather a knack."
"The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."


Launching is Optional... Landing? That Depends on Trees.
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  #6  
Old 01-01-2017, 12:28 AM
Sheryl@Semroc Sheryl@Semroc is offline
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Thank you Steve for your kind words. Jim, keep in mind that after Estes produced several of one kit, the dimensions changed because of the wear of the wheel on the nose cone machine and the fin tool guide they used. If you're lucky enough to have the first ones produced , you would have the correct dimensions. Carl and Vern talked about this very thing.

PS. May the new year bring all our friends health and happiness in 2017.
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  #7  
Old 10-26-2017, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gus
Carl always seemed pretty fanatical about making faithful reproductions. How does the Semroc Bluebird Zero differ from the Estes version?


I finally have the answer when it comes to the fins. I have been working with Randy Boadway, and I've been given the file for the laser cut fins for the Semroc BBZ. I have also purchased an Estes BBZ and now have a scan of the fins.



Semroc's Retro Reproduction fins are curved on the tips of the fins, where Estes are not.

I know that there are those here that accuse me of bashing Carl, but I never have and NEVER will. What he did was different (slightly). They weren't "WRONG", they were different. They were not an exact match to the Estes product, and when I am simulating an Estes product (or cloning it), or making a sim of a Semroc product, I want to be as accurate as possible. That is why I needed the Estes fins scanned.

Oh, and wanting to do something right isn't being "SHELDON-esque". It is just wanting to do something right.

Now, it's 4 am in the morning... I'm calling it a day.

Nutz... I forgot... The name "Blue Bird Zero" in the Estes kit is white. Semroc's is black.
__________________
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Dreaming of making the rockets I dreamed of as a kid (and then some).

"The Guide says there is an art to flying", said Ford, "or rather a knack."
"The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."


Launching is Optional... Landing? That Depends on Trees.

Last edited by K'Tesh : 10-26-2017 at 03:14 PM.
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  #8  
Old 10-26-2017, 04:10 PM
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K'Tesh,

The kit you bought, which version was it? Black hangtag or Rainbow hangtag?

Let me say this again, my memory of Carl is that he did everything possible to make his version of a kit as exact to the exemplar as he could. If the Semroc BBZ has fins with curved edges, I'm betting the version of the kit Carl copied had curved edges.
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  #9  
Old 10-26-2017, 05:03 PM
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K'Tesh K'Tesh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gus
K'Tesh,

The kit you bought, which version was it? Black hangtag or Rainbow hangtag?

Let me say this again, my memory of Carl is that he did everything possible to make his version of a kit as exact to the exemplar as he could. If the Semroc BBZ has fins with curved edges, I'm betting the version of the kit Carl copied had curved edges.


Rainbow.
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Dreaming of making the rockets I dreamed of as a kid (and then some).

"The Guide says there is an art to flying", said Ford, "or rather a knack."
"The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."


Launching is Optional... Landing? That Depends on Trees.
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  #10  
Old 10-26-2017, 09:50 PM
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K'Tesh K'Tesh is offline
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Ok... A few more hours of sleep in me.

While I believe that Carl did try to do things like you say Steve, I think he was also trying not to push things too far with the Retro Repro line of kits by making exact (external) clones. Thus the difference in the shape of the aforementioned Semroc OMEGA, and the BBZ as I've been able to prove to myself with my own samples/resources.

In every photo that I can remember seeing of the original Estes BBZ, and the few originals I've seen (including my very own step-brother's) the fins' tips were angled, and not curved, unless there's some kind of damage involved. I highly doubt that between the time period of the black hang tag, and the rainbow hang tag, that Estes changed the design to alter the shape of the fin. I'd welcome incontrovertible photographic evidence to the otherwise.

To easy your mind, I will now see if I can turn up any images of an unbuilt, black hang tagged, Estes BBZ that shows the fins either loose, or clearly in the matrix.
__________________
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Dreaming of making the rockets I dreamed of as a kid (and then some).

"The Guide says there is an art to flying", said Ford, "or rather a knack."
"The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."


Launching is Optional... Landing? That Depends on Trees.

Last edited by K'Tesh : 10-26-2017 at 10:15 PM.
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