#41
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Randy-
Do you recall the motors used in each stage? I assume 18mm BP of some type, but would be interested to know which, if you/she remembers. I've done clustered five engine AP/BP single stage Saturn V flights and have long wanted to do a 'full up' Saturn V three stage flight......just never got it 'on the books' to try yet. Thanks, Earl
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Earl L. Cagle, Jr. NAR# 29523 TRA# 962 SAM# 73 Owner/Producer Point 39 Productions Rocket-Brained Since 1970 |
#42
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Earl,
After a considerable development and research process was added to her own experiences, on the 100% successful launch she decided to go with: 1st stage 4 C6-0 & 1 D12-0 2nd stage 4 B4-2 & 1 B6-0 3rd stage 1 B4-4 The D12-0 & B6-0's were the core engines. Her build, with photos and some narrative, is posted to the SEARS 572 website. http://www.sears572.com/supersaturnv.htm Scroll the pages and follow the links at the bottom to see all 7 pages and the flight report to that date. Randy www.vernarockets.com |
#43
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Randy,
You indicate there was a 100% successful flight, but it is not covered in the flight report. Was Verna really able to gap stage 5 motors at once (1st to 2nd stage) and get all 5 second stage motors to ignite? Steve |
#44
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Quote:
Steve- Interesting info. Sounds like the basis for a good tech article for Tom Beach to run in Sport Rocketry mag. I'm sure many would find it enlightening. Earl
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Earl L. Cagle, Jr. NAR# 29523 TRA# 962 SAM# 73 Owner/Producer Point 39 Productions Rocket-Brained Since 1970 |
#45
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I would tend to believe that top stage needed a B4-6 or B6-6 instead of a B4-4 !
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When in doubt, WHACK the GAS and DITCH the brake !!! Yes, there is such a thing as NORMAL, if you have to ask what is "NORMAL" , you probably aren't ! Failure may not be an OPTION, but it is ALWAYS a POSSIBILITY. ALL systems are GO for MAYHEM, CHAOS, TURMOIL, FIASCOS, and HAVOC ! |
#46
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Gus,
She made 4 flights in all. Look back on this thread for the flights and dates. There were two attempts prior to the successful flight. The report on the SEARS website was about the April 2004 attempt and the build article was posted in May of 2004. The article there has not been updated since the original posting, 9 years ago. Yes. Her 3rd flight was indeed 100% successful -- and came after the build article on November 17, 2004 - 6 months after the report that goes with the 7 page build was posted by SEARS president Greg Lane. In addition to Verna & I, the flight was witnessed by our club president at that time, Ron Witherspoon and my son. Because the build article had already been posted to the SEARS 572 website, SR was not interested in an expanded article on her Saturns. There's a rule or something about any part of an article and previous postings but - Verna and her Saturns were featured in a brief article I did on another topic for SR that appeared April 2006 and it featured her and her Saturn V's . Randy www.vernarockets.com |
#47
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Randy,
I fly gap staged rockets more than almost anyone else I know. Simultaneously igniting 5 clustered gap-staged motors is a truly spectacular accomplishment! I've seen lots of multi-staged Saturn V's fly, but they all used electronics. Honestly, it never occurred to me that "going native" was possible. I remember reading about Verna's Saturn a long time ago, long before I started gap-staging, so I wouldn't have truly understood how amazing it was. I'm particularly intrigued that she got the D12 and C6's to work in harmony. The C6s actually burn slightly longer than the D12 so I would have thought the central motor in the second stage would have lit before the outboards. I also would have thought the likelihood of 1st and second stage torquing and preventing separation would have been really great. Can you tell us what the failure modes were on the first two flights? Again, thanks for sharing this. You just really expanded my envelope of what is possible. I love this hobby. Steve |
#48
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Steve,
Back up just a bit to post 40 of this thread where I typed up some of her notes; for some detail on all 4 flights. Obviously you've got some good experience from your flights, as your last post on flight characteristics are very close to what we saw on her flights. The engine burn through times are miliseconds apart for the boosters but there is a small difference. On the first flight they were obvious, not as much so on the 3 that followed. There was mild torquing on all 4 but not enough to spoil the flights. The thing I found the most interesting was what she took away from each attempt as to why things went the way they did and how she decided to adjust the next attempt. I think it was mainly the difference in how women think and the way men think. We often came to the same conclusions but differed on how to adjust. Her rocket/her choice. Part of her adjustment was to use engines with the largest nozzles in the 2nd & 3rd stage, hence her selection and visual observations of what she was holding at the time. What we found VERY interesting in our motor selection and research was that there can be a big difference in diameter between nozzles of the same designation. Was it a screw up at the factory? We don't know but when they were used, they performed the same. Most lilkely every old timer here will say "It's not possible" but I'm telling you we saw it and in actual use. I do not recall the exact engine so just for an example, say you had 5-6 packs of B6-0's. Upon inspection, you see all engines in each pack are the same, but when compared to another pack from another batch, the nozzles of pack #2 are easily larger in diameter, at least on the exterior surface. They look and perform identical in every way but one pack seems to have at least a 50% larger opening. I even took a photo and posted it for comment someplace, maybe RMR when it was still fucntional, I don't remember, definately not YORF or TRF. Almost had to be RMR/ABMR. Maybe Jerry can shed some light on how to get the same thrust profile on 2 different engine nozzles. Again, the torque factor was nominal but there was a definate change in angle after staging. The flights that were not successful mainly came down to simply missing a core motor all 3 times. Verna would tell you the one that worked had the largest nozzles she could use, double the tape where they mate (about 1/2" wide by 1.5" long) 4 places spaced equally around the bt. (Lots of venting going on too) But she also said that when everything is perfectly built and the conditions are optimal there is still one major factor in being successful and that is LUCK! Once I reminded her of what Bear Bryant and Knute Rockney used to say: "Luck is when preparedness, meets opportunity, so it tales your best effort and then a little help from God, Karma or whatever you happen to believe in. In this case she said she had some help from CHAD. ; ) With all said and done she feels that even in the best case senario it's still a 50/50 shot but when it works, it's truly amazing and satisfying. Oh, one last thing, perhaps what sets her accomplishment apart from all the others, is that she didn't use electronics. She decided before she broke open the box that she wanted to do it old school. Randy www.vernarockets.com |
#49
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Looking at thread title "Significant events in clustering" and keep thinking that Gunnery St. Highway might have a different take on the mental image created.
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later, Forrest "Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality." -- Nikola Tesla, Modern Mechanics and Inventions, July, 1934 |
#50
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Gy.Sgt. R. Lee Ermey would most likely be of the same opinion as Gunny Highway and he is a REAL Gy. Sgt.
__________________
When in doubt, WHACK the GAS and DITCH the brake !!! Yes, there is such a thing as NORMAL, if you have to ask what is "NORMAL" , you probably aren't ! Failure may not be an OPTION, but it is ALWAYS a POSSIBILITY. ALL systems are GO for MAYHEM, CHAOS, TURMOIL, FIASCOS, and HAVOC ! |
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