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Old 02-21-2017, 04:56 PM
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Default STUDY SUMMARY: Advanced Transportation Systems Study Final Report

Here's some more from the "First Lunar Outpost" studies related to the Space Exploration Initiative of the early 1990's... This one is a biggie because it contains a number of reports on a number of different subjects all rolled into one presentation relating to the SEI effort.

Reading the study and looking at the slides, it's easy to see WHY the SEI turned into "Battlestar Galactica", ballooned to over $450 BILLION dollars in price, and was subsequently laughed out of the halls of Congress... They had plans for everything from huge new super boosters up to 50 feet in diameter to various revivals of the Saturn hardware (which would have been smart) to various NLS proposals, some mish-mashed with Saturn hardware, they even looked at buying Energia boosters from the Russians to strap onto their mega-NLS core vehicle... or buying Russian engines to outfit their new vehicle. Just crazy! It's interesting to note that Mike Griffin was in the middle of the fray-- not as NASA Administrator like he was during Bush II's presidency when he oversaw the canceled overpriced mess that was known as the Constellation Program (which was the flagship program of Bush II's "Vision for Space Exploration" (VSE), basically a do-over of his daddy's (Bush I's) SEI program, and its flagship program within SEI, the "First Lunar Outpost".

What's even crazier is that at the time this was written, the Space Shuttle was still very much the flagship program of NASA, and it was supposed to go hand-in-hand with the new flagship program, Space Station Freedom (SSF) (which had been proposed by Reagan and been approved and in design and redesign since 1986, shortly after the Challenger disaster, in order to give the shuttle a reason to continue to exist, for the most part). In the early 90's when this study was done, SSF was into its third or fourth redesign, the effort had stalled on the drawing boards and billions had been spent but not a single piece of hardware had been built. It would take the political maneuvering after the collapse of the Soviet Union to merge the SSF program (which was STILL a decade away from flying, and would require MANY billions more in redesign, plus developing new technologies like a standardized US orbital propellant transfer capability, the development of a US service module for the space station, automated docking, etc, NONE of which the US space program had but the Soviets had developed in the 1970's for their highly successful series of Salyut space stations, with their Progress resupply freighters and fuel tankers, service modules and propulsion systems for their space stations, all equipped with automated docking and fuel transfer capabilities.) The Soviets were about 6 years into their highly successful Space Station Mir program at the time this study was written and was in the throes of political collapse, but they had already approved and were working on the "Mir 2" program to replace the original 1986 Mir station, ostensibly when it was about 10 years old. As it was, Mir would fly until 2001, until its deorbiting was basically "forced" by NASA to prevent competition with the International Space Station (ISS), the new program that merged the SSF and Mir 2 programs and used the Russian service modules, refueling and resupply, and automated docking technologies coupled with the shuttle).

At any rate, it's an interesting read. It's easy to see where NASA keeps having the same ideas over and over and over again... the twin F-1A boosters are practically identical to the "Pyrios" LRB's proposed for the SLS block 2, and many of the assumptions NASA made about airlit SSME's for upper stage engines would play out again in the ESAS study that justified the building of the Ares I and Ares V for the Constellation program 12 years later... (which would be proven unworkable, as one slide in the presentation cautiously warns might be problematic-- which would prove to basically require a complete redesign of SSME to make it an airstart engine vs. a ground start engine).

Looking at some of the proposals, I half expected to see the "Drax Industries" logo emblazoned on the slide down in the corner... :lol: Lockheed Martin Missile and Space Division (LMMSD) and Lockheed Space Operations Company (LSOC) were the main contractors here, however.

So, get yourself some popcorn and leaf through one of NASA's most grandiose plans for creating a lunar infrastructure that would then be enlarged yet again for Mars missions... and they SERIOUSLY thought that there would be support to do this WHILE STILL OPERATING SHUTTLE *AND* SSF/ISS! Read the comments in the summary and the slides from Mike Griffin and other space program leaders of the time (and who would subsequently become NASA Administrator), view the thinking that has kept us stuck in LEO for the last 40 years, ENDLESSLY STUDYING how to go back to the Moon or Mars instead of ACTUALLY DOING IT. NOTHING was off the table-- no suggestion too outlandish or unrealistic to be "off the table"-- from massive new construction at KSC to support all these mega-rockets, to even site evaluations around the world looking at possibly starting over somewhere else besides KSC... 30, 40, even 50 foot diameter rockets were considered (despite the fact that Michoud can ONLY build a rocket about maybe 35-36 feet in diameter without having major modifications (ie torn down and rebuilt to raise the roof... this is the same issue that Ares V ran into when they enlarged the core to 33 foot diameter and were looking at going up to 40 feet... can't be built in Michoud, which means "all new facility") Likewise, multi-SRB boosted super-rockets were also assessed (and as a slide showed, were non-workable due to the Pads, VAB, crawlers, and crawlerways NOT being able to support them-- if anybody had bothered to read this report during the ESAS study and subsequent work on Ares V, it would have saved a lot of trouble-- This study pointed out in 1992 that multi SRB proposals would never work with the existing infrastructure, something that the Constellation program people would have to relearn the hard way when they tried to increase the Ares V boosters from five segment SRB's to six segment, and found that it was simply TOO HEAVY to ever move out of the VAB, if it didn't crack the foundations of the place to begin with... so they settled on squeezing "just under" the limits by designing around 5.5 segment boosters, and trying to add a sixth SSME to the core to make up the difference (which wasn't working as the core was already too massive and under-thrusted (Interestingly it WOULD have worked if they DUMPED the stupid SRB's and switched to F-1A powered LRB's instead, but that would violate the "shuttle derived" mantra).

Anyway, here it is... Enjoy! OL J R
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  #2  
Old 02-21-2017, 04:59 PM
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1. Executive summary Lockheed Space Operations Company May 1993

2. Operations impacts on HLLV engineering...

3. Medium lift generic LV design...

4. Past LV experience...

5. Single launch design options...

6. Stack Thrust/weight ratios...

7. groundrules and constraints...

8. CAD drawing engine base gimbal interference clearance...

9. Summary of candidate HLLV configurations...

10. Lunar vehicle-- NLS core with 4 LRBs...
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Old 02-21-2017, 05:03 PM
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1. Lunar vehicle-- NLS core w 4 ET size LRB's...

2. Lunar vehicle-- Stretched NLS core w/ 4 ET size LRB's...

3. Lunar vehicle-- stretched NLS core w/ 2nd stage and 2 stretched ET LRB's...

4. Mars Vehicle-- stretched NLS core w/ 4 ET stretched LRB's...

5. conclusions...

6. more conclusions...

7. more more conclusions...

8. and more conclusions...

9. still more conclusions...

10. yup more conclusions...
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Old 02-21-2017, 05:06 PM
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1. Operations conclusions...

2. cost conclusions...

3. concurrent engineering meeting Sunnyvale, CA...

4. the usual suspects... LOL

5. the FLO team...

6. the guys who decide what the definition of an HLLV is...

7. S&E Org... sorta superfluous but I swear NASA appoints a commission to weigh options about forming a panel to consider selecting a committee to study forming groups to select tiger teams to define what they should be studying for any given program options...

8. "Lunar Direct" transport system... big TLI stage shoots an unmanned lander with a hab (SSF module) on top to land automatically on the Moon, 45 days later another launch shoots the same big lander with a CRV on top with the crew to do a direct landing on the lunar surface within walking distance of the hab lander... They put the CRV into sleep mode and live in the hab for 45 days, then reactivate the CRV, launch off the Moon directly into TEI to reenter at Earth like Apollo 4 days later... No more CSM/LM, now just 2 descent stages, one with the hab, one with the crew return vehicle...

9. mission overview...

10. HLLV requirements...
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Old 02-21-2017, 05:09 PM
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1. SEI requirements for the HLLV...

2. detailed design requirements...

3. cont'd...

4. lunar mission profile...

5. cont'd...

6. FLO reference vehicle configurations...

7. NLS derived HLLV w/ 4 LRB's (2 F-1A's each) manned vehicle...

8. NLS derived HLLV w/ 3 LRB's (3 F-1A's each) manned vehicle...

9. Saturn derived HLLV w/ 2 LRB's (2 F-1A's each) manned vehicle...

10. cost comparisons of SEI HLLV's (if you choose to believe NASA's costing methods-- they're never right!)
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Old 02-21-2017, 05:13 PM
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1. SSME for upper stage use-- yeah "potential issues" were game stoppers on Constellation-- found that adapting SSME for airstarting or restarting in space basically meant designing it new from scratch!

2. History of Zenit/Energia... (goody! Let's use Russian boosters on our return to the Moon vehicle!)

3. Comparison of US/ Russian hardware...

4. NLS w/ Energia strap on boosters...

5. Saturn w/ Energia boosters... (methinks Werner Von Braun and Sergei Korolev were BOTH spinning in their graves on that one! Or maybe sitting around talking and having a good laugh?)

6. How bout if we just used Russian engines on US built NLS or Saturn revived cores??

7. SEI LV specs... the first one is interesting, the NLS core with 8 Energia boosters... something almost identical was proposed by an independent team inside and outside of NASA about the time the Constellation program got the ax... It was called "Neptune" and would have used an ET-derived core (gotta be shuttle derived, even if we make it 33 feet in diameter now!) surrounded by 8 Atlas V's as Liquid Rocket Boosters... performance was phenomenal with 4 SSME's on the core stage... The middle one is the same rocket but with "what if we made four boosters out of shuttle ET's with a pair of RD-170's from Atlas V on each??" The one on the right is "how about a 33 foot (Saturn sized) core with four SSME's on it surrounded by 6 Energia boosters??" Gotta love Lego rockets!

8. NLS core with 8 Energia LRB's... the Russians planned to build this exact same rocket-- they called it "Vulkan"... All they really had to do was beef up the core stage of Energia and dump the ogive shaped upper LOX tank, going cylindrical to put the payload up on top (where it belongs) instead of hanging off the side like Energia... (which was designed to loft their Buran shuttle, as well as side-mount payloads like their Polyus space battle station)...

9. Issues/Concerns using Russian hardware... gee lemme think...

10. How about shuttle derived?? Yep huge cluster of giant SRB's, that's the ticket!
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Old 02-21-2017, 05:15 PM
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1. ASRM (Advanced Solid Rocket Motor, basically a composite cased SRB designed for shuttle launches from Vandenberg, since 1) shuttle couldn't reach polar orbit with the heavier, lower performance regular SRB's from Vandenberg and 2) steel cased SRB's need to be recovered, which would require a recovery ship force and facilities in California-- composite cased ASRM's are expendable "fly and forget" just drop them into the Pacific off the Baja Coast and forget about it... Plus hey, we can just add an extra segment to those suckers and make mega ASRBs!!!

2. NLS derived lunar vehicles... cargo and crew launch (look familiar?? It's basically SLS...)

3. Souped up ASRMs...

4. Why all those pretty 3, 4, or more SRB configurations that often crop up WILL NOT WORK... (they'd crack the floor of the VAB under the weight of all those fully-fueled SRB's, you'd have to build a mega-crawler to haul them out to the pad and dig out the crawler ways halfway to China and make them stronger to support the weight and not sink the thing hopelessly in the Florida swamp, and then you'd have to blow up 39A and B and rebuild the pads since they'd never stand up to the blast of that much thrust, let alone the weight of such a behemoth... Constellation didn't do their homework, because these guys had that figured out back in 92... Constellation tried going to 6 segment SRB's and found it was simply too heavy for the VAB, crawler, crawlerways, and pads... they found that they could JUST squeeze under the red line with 5.5 segment boosters, but would have had to add a 6th SSME to the core of Ares V, which means a bigger or longer core stage to hold the extra propellant, which is extra weight that has to be lifted off the pad, which ultimately is self defeating, which is why Ares V was basically "imploding" even in the early design phases...

Shame nobody could have ever found this top secret study and read the... oh wait...

5. NLS derived Mars vehicles

6. 3 stage lunar "monolithic" (series staged, FINALLY something like a revived Saturn V-- well, more like "Nova" but still... Werner would be smiling... )

7. 3 stage lunar HLLV's... Werner Von Braun's original plan for NOVA, more or less... guess he was right when he figured back in 1962 that you'd need an 8 F-1A powered 40 foot diameter first stage, a couple M-1's or a buttload of J-2's on the second stage, and a pair of J-2Ss on the third stage to do a "direct landing" (which is what this mission model is, instead of "lunar orbit rendezvous") on the Moon...

He was also right that you'd need to keep the height down by using common bulkheads between the tanks on the upper stages instead of separate bulkheads like these guys insist on now... plus you need to save the extra weight of the separate bulkhead, Y-ring, and intertank structure since all that mass comes DIRECTLY out of your payload mass on those upper stages... Notice their new designs won't even fit out the VAB door because they're too scared to use a common bulkhead so the stage is 10 feet or so shorter...

8. More "NOVA 2" configurations... scratch all those with the SSME's... never work. Substitute J-2S and you've got something, or spend a billion and develop J-2X (on second thought... LOL)

9. 40 foot diameter "Super-Nova"... everything old is new again...

10. How about 43 foot?? Now we're talking! (Only problem is, you have to build a new plant to build them in... Michoud is maxxed out at about 35-36 feet IIRC... Constellation figured that out when they started looking at a 40 foot diameter core stage... IIRC a 36 foot diameter stage would clear the ceiling by 18 inches and the floor by about a foot... any bigger, you gotta build a new plant, or raise the roof on Michoud (cheaper to build a new plant methinks... )
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Old 02-21-2017, 05:19 PM
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1. the 40 foot "NOVA 2"... with a cluster of 5 SSME's on the second stage (which is a non-starter).

2. same but with STME's (throw-away slightly souped up but lower ISP NLS version of SSME).

3. 42 foot diameter NOVA 2-- all F-1A's and J-2S's...

4. 42 footer with SSME's (still won't work).

5. 42 footer with STME's (since the STME's were never built but died with the NLS program, we'll assume that they would design them from the get-go to be air-startable and restartable...

6. The "variable diameter option"... Looks cooler, like a chubby version of Saturn V (not those graceful steps like Saturn V from the 13.5 foot CM to the 21.6 foot S-IVB to the 33 foot S-II/S-IC, but at least it's not a straight tube like the others... but seriously, WHY BOTHER with the different diameters when you're only going from 38 foot up to 42 foot to 46 foot with a 50 foot skirt over the F-1A's on the first stage?? Changing diameters costs money in tooling-- common diameter, while visually boring, saves a TON of money through common tooling to manufacture the stages...

7. Same thing but with SSME's... (STILL won't work... )

8. Same thing but with STME's... (like I said, we'll assume they designed STME for airstarts...)

9. FLO piloted CRV lander vs. Apollo LM...

10. Nose cone/payload shrouds for the big hab lander/CRV...
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Last edited by luke strawwalker : 02-21-2017 at 07:08 PM.
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Old 02-21-2017, 05:22 PM
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1. nosecone dimensions... very handy...

2. NASA HQ "Perceptions and DESIREMENTS" (DESIREMENTS?? Is that even a word?? Engineers needed to pay attention in English class instead of doodling shuttle derived rockets... LOL

3. The "inning and the score" with regards to the politics... and the players at the time, Dan Goldin (NASA Administrator famous for "Faster, better, cheaper" which led to an ignoble string of failures when things like doing ground testing to make sure the hundred million dollar space probe would work right, or that the HST's mirror was actually ground correctly, or to double-check the math and make sure somebody didn't use imperial measurements for half the calculations and metric for the other half (and splatter your lander all over the Martian polar region as a result) or double-check to make sure that the deployment switch designed to eject the parachute on your probe that's been out collecting "stardust" for a year or two isn't installed upside down, splattering your "stardust" all over the state of Nevada... but hey, we're saving money!!! Then there's future NASA Administrator under Bush II, Mike Griffin, who was a rocket engineer at the time (and who would mastermind the fiasco that came to be known as "Constellation", even when it was READILY APPARENT that the project was headed in the wrong direction toward a train wreck... which it finally did... yet he took NO avoiding action. But, hey, he did rip out the shuttle supporting infrastructure as fast as he could to prevent endless "extensions" of the shuttle program, so I'll give him points for that!)

4. Pulse of the effort...

5. Concept development kickoff briefing...

6. study description...

7. POST test case description... (rocket flight program analysis... )

8. trajectory summary...

9. study methodology-- ground ops...

10. continued...
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The X-87B Cruise Basselope-- THE Ultimate Weapon in the arsenal of Homeland Security and only $52 million per round!

Last edited by luke strawwalker : 02-21-2017 at 07:21 PM.
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Old 02-21-2017, 05:24 PM
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luke strawwalker luke strawwalker is offline
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1. More ground ops...

2. Integrated logistics support plan...

3. space transport cost analysis...

4. LV cost efficiency...

5. introduction...

6. single launch design options...

7. groundrules and constraints...

8. TLI and second stage...

9. Booster...

10. general constraints and groundrules...
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The X-87B Cruise Basselope-- THE Ultimate Weapon in the arsenal of Homeland Security and only $52 million per round!

Last edited by luke strawwalker : 02-21-2017 at 07:24 PM.
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