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  #1  
Old 04-20-2014, 07:23 AM
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blackshire blackshire is offline
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Default Estes Command 'Copter

Hello All,

Did anyone here ever see, build, and/or fly an Estes Command 'Copter? If so, what were your experiences with and impressions of it? This .020 glow plug engine-powered, F/F (Free-Flight) helicopter kit was offered only in the 1975 Estes catalog (on the back cover, see: http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/ca...s75/75estb.html ), and it may rival the Astron Invader boost-glider as the rarest Estes kit. It was actually a scale-like model helicopter, resembling the Hiller HJ-1 (see: http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/hiller_hj-1.php and http://www.aerospaceweb.org/questio...ers/q0141.shtml ). Since Estes is now becoming a purveyor of fine R/C electric helicopters, an updated electric version of the Command 'Copter (the motor run time could be controlled by a timer) would make a good and inexpensive F/F helicopter.

Many thanks in advance for your help!
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Old 04-20-2014, 08:31 AM
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Rich Holmes Rich Holmes is offline
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I don't know a thing about helicopters, and I'll prove it by asking the following question: How did the Estes Command Copter achieve yaw control? Obviously it didn't use a tip jet.
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Old 04-20-2014, 08:59 AM
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ghrocketman ghrocketman is offline
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There were a couple of those for sale on Ebay within the last 5 years.
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Old 04-20-2014, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Holmes
I don't know a thing about helicopters, and I'll prove it by asking the following question: How did the Estes Command Copter achieve yaw control? Obviously it didn't use a tip jet.
'Tis a good question! Being a Free-Flight model, it wasn't *actively* controlled. The fuselage "weather-vaned" into the relative wind (horizontal airflow) flowing past the fuselage. Even in still air, -passive- yaw control should have been possible--as it was done in the full-scale Hiller HJ-1 (see: http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/hiller_hj-1.php )--by employing a "leaning rudder" (which would have been fixed in the case of a model like the Command 'Copter). The "leaning rudder" in the HJ-1 was acted upon by the downwash from the rotor. I don't know if the Estes Command 'Copter actually used this, as I've never seen one. Its general configuration and operating procedures were similar to those of the Cox (and later Estes/Cox, see: http://coxengines.ca/files/Helicopter.pdf ) Free-Flight helicopters, none of which (to my knowledge) used a "leaning rudder," either fixed or ground-adjustable--their fuselages simply "weather-vaned" into the (horizontal) relative wind that flowed past them.
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http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
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Last edited by blackshire : 04-20-2014 at 09:31 AM.
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Old 04-20-2014, 09:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
There were a couple of those for sale on Ebay within the last 5 years.
Interesting--thank you for mentioning this. I'm not really looking for one (although I wouldn't pass up one if the price was reasonable). But since it looked so much like the Hiller HJ-1, a Sport Scale HJ-1 kit based on the Command 'Copter would be very do-able. The electric motor & propeller, a Li-Po battery, and a timer (either mechanical or electronic) could be mounted on the rotor hub, and the rotor would spin in the opposite direction from the motor shaft and propeller, completely avoiding torque effects (since there would be no torque) on the fuselage. An adjustable-angle "leaning rudder" on the fuselage would provide yaw stability.
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http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
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Old 04-20-2014, 10:40 AM
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I seem to remember one of them included a NIB Cox Pee Wee 020 which was the Estes suggested engine.
It went for really ignorant money of somewhere near $200.

The other one was also NIB, sans the 020...I'm pretty sure that one sold for under $75.
I know it went for under $100.

It would be interesting to see how one of there things or a Cox Sky Copter would fly with a screaming TeeDee 020 at about 27,000 RPM.
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When in doubt, WHACK the GAS and DITCH the brake !!!

Yes, there is such a thing as NORMAL
, if you have to ask what is "NORMAL" , you probably aren't !

Failure may not be an OPTION, but it is ALWAYS a POSSIBILITY.
ALL systems are GO for MAYHEM, CHAOS, and HAVOC !
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Old 04-20-2014, 12:42 PM
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dlazarus6660 dlazarus6660 is offline
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I own and flew the Cox Airwolf I got back in the late 80's when it came out. I flew it a few times then put it away knowing it would become a collectors item.
It flew lousy and I broke a landing gear that I need to replace.
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Old 04-20-2014, 07:13 PM
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blackshire blackshire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
I seem to remember one of them included a NIB Cox Pee Wee 020 which was the Estes suggested engine.
It went for really ignorant money of somewhere near $200.

The other one was also NIB, sans the 020...I'm pretty sure that one sold for under $75.
I know it went for under $100.

It would be interesting to see how one of there things or a Cox Sky Copter would fly with a screaming TeeDee 020 at about 27,000 RPM.
Here (see: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2055924 ) are some good pictures of an Estes Command 'Copter, which clearly show its components. Since the Cox engines are no longer made--Cox International in Canada (see: http://coxengines.ca ) bought all of Estes' Cox products inventory and is selling them now--that ~$200 price for the kit plus the .020 engine might not have been -too- outrageous (although I wouldn't have spent that much for them). But:

What is/are the difference(s) between the "Pee Wee" and "Tee Dee" versions of the .020? Is the latter a "souped-up" version of the former? Also:

I once had a Cox Bell 47G Free-Flight helicopter (a "semi-profile" model of the helicopter type seen on the TV show M*A*S*H, in a yellow-orange civilian decor scheme), which was powered by an .020 engine (I don't know if it was a "Pee Wee" or a "Tee Dee" .020). It never could develop *quite* enough thrust to rise into the air, but since we lived 4,000+ feet above sea level in the Blue Ridge Mountains of northern Georgia at the time, the thinner air at that altitude may have kept it from developing enough power to fly. In addition:

Not long after that, I noticed that the Cox Bell 47G model ceased to be available, and all of Cox's subsequent Free-Flight helicopters were powered by the more powerful .049 engines, so I guess other folks also had problems with the .020-powered Bell 47G models. Estes' Command 'Copter helicopter had a larger-diameter (24.5") rotor with wider-chord blades than the 19.5" diameter rotors on the Cox helicopters, so it may have flown just fine with an .020 engine.
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http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
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Last edited by blackshire : 04-20-2014 at 07:56 PM.
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  #9  
Old 04-20-2014, 07:30 PM
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blackshire blackshire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlazarus6660
I own and flew the Cox Airwolf I got back in the late 80's when it came out. I flew it a few times then put it away knowing it would become a collectors item.
It flew lousy and I broke a landing gear that I need to replace.
Have you looked in Cox International's online catalog (see: http://coxengines.ca )? They might have the part that you need. If not, hopefully the broken landing gear on your Airwolf model is wire, which is easier to replace than a molded plastic component. Indeed, licensed TV show "tie-in" models like those are often in production for shorter periods of time (until the shows themselves are cancelled--for example, Centuri's Buck Rogers kits were made for only a couple of years), which makes them rarer and more collectible. Also:

My Cox Bell 47G was quite heavy for its size, which was no doubt part of why its .020 engine couldn't quite lift it (our 4,000'-plus altitude in the mountains was likely another factor), and I imagine your Cox Airwolf model is also heavy for its size.
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Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
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Last edited by blackshire : 04-20-2014 at 07:59 PM.
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  #10  
Old 04-20-2014, 10:28 PM
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ghrocketman ghrocketman is offline
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The Cox Tee-Dee series engines are all very high performance front-rotary valve (crankshaft) induction that turn high RPM.

The PeeWee 020 is a shrunken version of the low-performance babe-bee 049.
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When in doubt, WHACK the GAS and DITCH the brake !!!

Yes, there is such a thing as NORMAL
, if you have to ask what is "NORMAL" , you probably aren't !

Failure may not be an OPTION, but it is ALWAYS a POSSIBILITY.
ALL systems are GO for MAYHEM, CHAOS, and HAVOC !
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