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  #61  
Old 02-13-2017, 11:59 AM
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ghrocketman ghrocketman is offline
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I have several full diamond-paks, many of which are B14-0's, of which I generally burn one or two B14's a year.
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  #62  
Old 02-14-2017, 02:27 AM
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blackshire blackshire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle3
I have great fondness for the diamond paks and the artwork. It reminds me of the mom and pop hobby shop that I bought from when I first got in to the hobby. I have several diamond paks that I keep on the display pegboard in the hobby room.

I also have a sheet of Astron Igniter blister paks that haven't been separated.

When I moved to Greenville, MS for a year (1975) there was a hobby shop with blue and green tube motors. Unfortunately I was on a lawn mowing budget at the time and also didn't know how valuable those would have been. I still have some of the empty tubes. I gave one each to Carl for his collection.
The diamond paks were certainly convenient, including for the vendors. Not only did they stack nicely, but I recall seeing them laid out in "horizontally staggered" rows (sort of like drawers) as a counter top display, which made it very easy for customers to see which ones were available (they didn't have to bend down and read the ends of the diamond paks if they didn't want to, although the diamond paks' ends were very easy to read if they were stacked in a higher rack or wall mount, as the earlier "tube-paks" sometimes were). If Estes isn't interested in releasing such "nostalgia packaging" (we old nags might not be considered a big enough market segment to be worth serving with it--although local hobby shops would probably find the diamond paks very practical), Quest could attract some attention--and kudos from conservationists--by going to the biodegradable diamond paks... PLUS:

This (a smaller, "horizontally staggered" diamond pak display) could also, of course, be set up in a range box (or on a table or a vehicle tailgate) out on the flying field, for quick motor selection and "marking off" exhausted varieties that need to be replenished later. In fact, Greg's downloadable & printable (on card stock) diamond paks in Reply #13 *here* (see: http://www.oldrocketforum.com/showt...65&page=2&pp=10 ) would make it easy to do this again today; if desired, the card stock could possibly be laminated in order to make the diamond paks last longer before having to be replaced.
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Last edited by blackshire : 02-14-2017 at 02:50 AM.
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  #63  
Old 02-14-2017, 02:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
I have several full diamond-paks, many of which are B14-0's, of which I generally burn one or two B14's a year.
Ah--you have your own "Stockpile Integrity Assurance" program... :-)
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http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
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  #64  
Old 02-14-2017, 08:07 PM
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Gus Gus is offline
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About 10 years ago I went to a local odd-lot toy wholesaler in search of an Estes Mercury Atlas kit rumored to be for sale there. The kit wasn't there, but tucked down on the end of a low shelf was an open-topped box full of Diamond Pack motors with a 3x5 card sign taped to the front stating "2$ each."

The motors and sign were covered with thick dust indicating that nothing in that box had been touched for a LONG time. The owner of the store, who had inherited the business from his dad was sitting in the middle of the store, so I asked him if he'd be interested in selling the whole carton of motors. His only concern was that I wasn't going to let kids use them, he was worried the motors were so old they might be dangerous. I assured him I'd only let my adult rocketry friends use them and let him suggest a price.

"How about $50" he asked, and I readily agreed.

I have to admit I had no idea how many diamond packs you could put in a roughly 16" x 16" x 16" box. I was kind of surprised that there were over 250 packs in that box. They were all very low impulse 18 mm motors, 1/4, 1/2, and A motors.

It turns out his dad had bought out a going-out-of-business hobby store some 20 years earlier. There was a lot more stuff in the basement that got pulled out over the next two years and I bought quite a bit, though never again at such a bargain.

So here are some pictures of some of the motors, and how packable they are.

1st pic: 13 mm 4 packs, 18 mm shorty motor 3 packs, regular 18 mm motor 3 packs
2nd pic: end shot showing the different shapes of the diamond packs
3rd pic: you can fit 40 18mm diamond pack motors in a small sterilite box
4th pic: you can fit over 70 packs of 13 mm motors in the same kind of small sterilite box
5th pic: this is how the 13 mm motors were shipped to the stores (outside of box can be seen in 4th pic, too)
6th pic: end shot of the 13 mm diamond pack, two motors slid side by side inside the box, then two more went on top of those
7th pic: 18mm motor, 18 mm shorty motor, 13 mm motor
8th pic: end shot of the same motors. note the green paper on the B14
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Last edited by Gus : 02-14-2017 at 08:28 PM.
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  #65  
Old 02-14-2017, 08:25 PM
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Gus Gus is offline
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About 6 months ago we burned up a fair number of these motors under the NAR's old motor program. With permission of the NAR we held a fundraising event at Jackson Model Rocketry Club where each participant got a diamond pack of 1/2 A6-0's and another of 1/2 A6-4's. The idea was that you had to fly one rocket in 3 events, spot-landing, streamer duration, and altimeter altitude. (when was the last time you flew spot landing with a two stage rocket, LOL)

We had over 25 participants, burned 75 of these old motors, and only had one motor anomaly (off center thrust). It was HUGE fun, and proved how reliable these old motors were. Obviously they had been well stored for 40 years.

The motors were actually way more reliable than the rocketeers, many of whom are regular high power fliers and hadn't flown a two stage black powder motor in years. It was really refreshing to reaquaint a number of the guys with the fun of flying really low impulse motors and trying to remember which direction the sustainer motors need to point.

From the same source, I was also able to obtain a number of B14-0 diamond packs. I donated a significant number of those to the U.S. Spacemodeling team and the scale altitude team flew them in Bulgaria. Not a single motor failure with those, either. You should see a Bumper Wac absolutely scream off the pad with those B14-0's. Again, HUGE fun.

Sadly, the toy wholesaler went out of business about a year and a half ago. No warning, just closed one day. I had continued to stop in from time to time but hadn't found anything special there in at least 6 or 7 years. But I certainly had more than my fair share, so i can't complain.

RIP Van Dyke Pool and Toy. Miss you.
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  #66  
Old 02-14-2017, 10:07 PM
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blackshire blackshire is offline
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Thank you, Gus, for that well-illustrated and described time trip (I remember the diamond paks *and* the green-paper motors from back then)! The highly-reliable performances of the old motors at both the NAR-sanctioned fund-raising event and the U.S. Spacemodeling team's competition flights in Bulgaria raise an interesting possibility, which the NAR (and CAR) should look into:

Because "smart storage boxes" are now readily available from Uline and other packaging suppliers (these boxes have passive sensors which indicate shock, up-ending, and other conditions that the boxes' contents have been subjected to during shipping and storage), old hobbyist rocket motors need not have certification and contest certification expiration dates, as they now do (contest certification based on "fair availability" of old out-of-production motors to all contestants is a separate issue, which could be addressed via appropriate contest rules and/or classes). Also:

As long as black powder motors' rolled-paper cases remain structurally sound, and the motors are stored in a cool, dry place, there is no reason why they shouldn't remain usable--and reliably so--for centuries. (Even old double-base and composite propellant rocket motors from retired military rockets, guided missiles, and ballistic missiles have proved to remain reliably usable for decades after their military use specifications'--with their wide storage and usage temperature ranges--expiration dates have passed, as sounding rocket and private satellite launch vehicle producers have happily found; "storing them in a cool, dry place" gives these big motors indefinite service lives, too.)
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http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
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  #67  
Old 02-15-2017, 12:36 AM
Initiator001 Initiator001 is offline
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There were several reasons the diamond motor packaging was discontinued.

One had to do with safety. A story I heard was that a hobby shop was on fire and a diamond pack or several had one of the motors ignite. Since the motors were packaged one behind the other each package basically 'staged'.

Second, hobby shops use pegboards to display product and the diamond packages didn't easily lend themselves to hanging on pegboard.

Three, blister card packaging is easier/faster than loading the diamond boxes and shrink wrapping.
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  #68  
Old 02-15-2017, 12:47 AM
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blackshire blackshire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Initiator001
There were several reasons the diamond motor packaging was discontinued.

One had to do with safety. A story I heard was that a hobby shop was on fire and a diamond pack or several had one of the motors ignite. Since the motors were packaged one behind the other each package basically 'staged'.

Second, hobby shops use pegboards to display product and the diamond packages didn't easily lend themselves to hanging on pegboard.

Three, blister card packaging is easier/faster than loading the diamond boxes and shrink wrapping.
The self-adhesive pegboard hangers (used on everything from candy bars in vending machines to--at one time--Quest's parachutes and streamers [their "Grippers"]) would solve the pegboard problem, but not the loading and--most of all--the "unintentional staging" problems... Plus, I can see how customers (and especially their kids) being able to actually *see* the motors in their blister packs would make them sell better ("Ooh, let's try *these*!").
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Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
NAR #54895 SR
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  #69  
Old 02-15-2017, 06:37 AM
Eagle3 Eagle3 is offline
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To add to Steve's story, we called the contest the "1/2 A(ss) Ironman Contest". It was great fun like he said and I can't believe we got off all those flights in on one day with the rest of the regular range operations. We'll have to do it again if you have enough motors left.

Here is a link to my photo album for that day. I was able to get a lot of staging photos thanks to 1/2 A boosters.

http://www.cv41.org/personal/galler...RC-18-June-2016
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  #70  
Old 02-15-2017, 07:58 AM
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tbzep tbzep is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Initiator001
There were several reasons the diamond motor packaging was discontinued.

One had to do with safety. A story I heard was that a hobby shop was on fire and a diamond pack or several had one of the motors ignite. Since the motors were packaged one behind the other each package basically 'staged'.

Second, hobby shops use pegboards to display product and the diamond packages didn't easily lend themselves to hanging on pegboard.

Three, blister card packaging is easier/faster than loading the diamond boxes and shrink wrapping.

I can get behind 2 and 3. They may have honestly worried about the 1st one, but I can tell you from experience if the shop is on fire and one ignites, the rest in that pack will ignite no matter what type of packaging it is in. It's pretty routine for me to enter houses with boxes and boxes of ammo cooking off. pop pop pop pop .....ting ting ting ting! (the casings fly and the bullets don't move so much) Ammo doesn't even have exposed powder.
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