Ye Olde Rocket Forum

Go Back   Ye Olde Rocket Forum > The Doctor is In! > Ask the Doctor
User Name
Password
Auctions Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts Search Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-09-2007, 07:23 AM
Rocket Doctor Rocket Doctor is offline
Master Modeler
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,400
Default D13 Estes Motors

How many of you are familiar with D-13 motors?
They were out around the early 70's, but the biggest difference was the nozzle size, smaller, causing them to fail.

From what I am told, they were referred to as the "Kaboom" motors.

I did find a couple in my motor lot, very interesting.....

Last edited by Rocket Doctor : 10-10-2007 at 12:50 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 10-09-2007, 08:40 AM
Shreadvector's Avatar
Shreadvector Shreadvector is offline
Launching since 1970.
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Southern California
Posts: 2,188
Default

Bad doctor.


The delay time is after the "dash". They were D13 motors, not D-13 motors. (Need I bring up the Citation motor designations?)

They were great when they did not fail. They had a deeper core than the D12 and they had a higher peak thrust, with coresponding higher internal pressure.

I'm not sure if they made any casing modifications, such as requiring more glue, but I do know they created the D12 to improve reliability. Lower peak thrust, lower pressure.

There were still problems with the D12 but they were not as bad as the D13. The D13 failures were often split casings accompanied by propellant blow-through. The D12 failures were almost always propellant blow-through.

They have indeed tweaked something over the years because the D12 very rarely fails these days compared to the 1970's.

As always, proper storage can also affect failure rates.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf CATOexplanation.pdf (14.9 KB, 97 views)
__________________
-Fred Shecter NAR 20117 (L2)
Southern California Rocket Association, NAR Section 430
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 10-09-2007, 08:56 AM
lurker01 lurker01 is offline
Craftsman
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 312
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Doctor
How many of you are familiar with D-13 motors?
They were out around the early 70's, but the biggest difference was the nozzle size, smaller, causing them to fail.

From what I am told, they were referred to as the "Kaboom" motors.

I did find a couple in my motor lot, very interesting.....



I have one sealed tube of D13s and one lose D13. Also have a couple brochures about the D13... also have a few kits that recommend the D13 as a motor... other than that I know nothing!

Robert
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 10-09-2007, 09:02 AM
Royatl's Avatar
Royatl Royatl is offline
SPEV/Orion wrangler
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 2,645
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Doctor
How many of you are familiar with D-13 motors?
They were out around the early 70's, but the biggest difference was the nozzle size, smaller, causing them to fail.

From what I am told, they were referred to as the "Kaboom" motors.

I did find a couple in my motor lot, very interesting.....


Of course, you should clarify that you are talking about Estes D13 motors, as Aerotech produces a D13 reload for its 18mm casing.

I still have one left, a D13-0 in an old style Estes-stripe casing (I *think* all the D12 motors were produced with the logo-style casing).

Shread is correct about the general failure modes of it. It seemed to be similar to the later E15 episode. If you flew a really fresh one, it would work very well. But store it for a few months and they'd often cato.

I have a film of an old MASER launch in '71. A friend of mine built a large two-stage model from peeled out carpet tube (just barely under the one pound limit). I had the good sense of setting the movie camera for 24fps (slow motion for 8mm) and the movie shows the obliteration of *both* stages with lots of smoke!
__________________
Roy
nar12605
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 10-09-2007, 09:22 AM
dwmzmm's Avatar
dwmzmm dwmzmm is offline
Master Modeler
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Katy, TX
Posts: 2,345
Default

I remember the D13's very, very well. One exploded on my K-36 Saturn - V at a Regional
meet in Louisiana (in 1972, I think) just as the model was starting to move up the rod; cost
me all of my flight points . I was in no mood to try a second flight after that. I still have the "last" D13-3 from that batch in my OOP vintage motor collection....
__________________
Dave, NAR # 21853 SR.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 10-09-2007, 10:43 AM
Bob H's Avatar
Bob H Bob H is offline
Master Modeler
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Douglas, MA
Posts: 556
Default

I flew two D13-5's last year as part of the NAR old motor testing program. The date code indicated they were made in 1969.

I flew them in a Goblin clone and they both performed perfectly. Liftoff was much faster than the same model using a D12.

Nozzle size is much bigger than a D12. I still have one more and a couple of D13-3's that I want to fly before the end of year.

I never had one CATO but will admit that I never flew a lot of them.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 10-09-2007, 11:31 AM
tfischer tfischer is offline
Craftsman
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 202
Default

Fred,

I've noticed your posts and attachments make a huge deal about brush fires. Is that a huge problem out in Cali? (I'm particularly thinking of the one you posted a couple weeks ago telling people they had to RUN to their rocket with a bucket of water if it crashed...)

I only ask because I launched a lot of rockets in my youth, and had a number of them fail/crash in spectaular ways, but have not once even come close to starting a fire, even a small one... The places we'd launch would be typically an athletic complex or groomed park, but there were often farm fields off to one side where the rockets would sometimes crash into...

Just wondering...

-Tim
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 10-09-2007, 11:43 AM
Rocket Doctor Rocket Doctor is offline
Master Modeler
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,400
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreadvector
Bad doctor.


The delay time is after the "dash". They were D13 motors, not D-13 motors. (Need I bring up the Citation motor designations?)

They were great when they did not fail. They had a deeper core than the D12 and they had a higher peak thrust, with coresponding higher internal pressure.

I'm not sure if they made any casing modifications, such as requiring more glue, but I do know they created the D12 to improve reliability. Lower peak thrust, lower pressure.

There were still problems with the D12 but they were not as bad as the D13. The D13 failures were often split casings accompanied by propellant blow-through. The D12 failures were almost always propellant blow-through.

They have indeed tweaked something over the years because the D12 very rarely fails these days compared to the 1970's.

As always, proper storage can also affect failure rates.


Fred

I know, I just wanted to emphasize the "13"

Caught me by surprise when I came across a couple.
There was a post about "fires", I would say, if it didn't rain in a long time, many parts of the country, then, under the right conditions, I would say a fire coulds result.

Anyone who goes camping knows about open fire bans.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 10-09-2007, 11:46 AM
Rocket Doctor Rocket Doctor is offline
Master Modeler
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,400
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Royatl
Of course, you should clarify that you are talking about Estes D13 motors, as Aerotech produces a D13 reload for its 18mm casing.

I still have one left, a D13-0 in an old style Estes-stripe casing (I *think* all the D12 motors were produced with the logo-style casing).

Shread is correct about the general failure modes of it. It seemed to be similar to the later E15 episode. If you flew a really fresh one, it would work very well. But store it for a few months and they'd often cato.

I have a film of an old MASER launch in '71. A friend of mine built a large two-stage model from peeled out carpet tube (just barely under the one pound limit). I had the good sense of setting the movie camera for 24fps (slow motion for 8mm) and the movie shows the obliteration of *both* stages with lots of smoke!



Sorry I didn't say ESTES, but coming over from the Estes forum it's just natural to go on about Estes products without mentioning their name.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 10-09-2007, 11:48 AM
Rocket Doctor Rocket Doctor is offline
Master Modeler
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,400
Default

Like I mentioned above, thet were known as the Kaboom motors.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:22 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Ye Olde Rocket Shoppe © 1998-2024