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  #1  
Old 08-18-2008, 10:14 AM
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AKPilot AKPilot is offline
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Default Estes, Shrox, and the Disappearing Act

Okay, let's hope someone can weight in on this - preferably the RD himself.

1) After months of waiting and empty promises, Estes finally admitted they were cancelling their catalog.

2) Also, many of the Wal-marts and Targets have eliminated Estes rockets from their shelves; allowing us to pick up some stellar deals (can you say motors for $1.24 a pack). Typically the clearing out has occurred immediately after Christmas, but in this case they whole kit-n-kaboodle's been removed and there's absolutely nothing to be found.

3) B.T. promised to a member of this board that he'd send Estes reps. to NARAM, and neither himself nor his employees ever showed.

4) It was announced elsewhere that the Shrox designed rockets have been shelved and may never be released. Thereby, if I understand licensing right, means Shrox will never be allowed to sell these designs on his own.


So, what's the deal then? There's a lot of facts here and little knowledge of what's really happening inside of the "E-Empire".
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Old 08-18-2008, 11:16 AM
foose4string foose4string is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKPilot
There's a lot of facts here and little knowledge of what's really happening inside of the "E-Empire".


...Which is clearly how they want it.

Hard to say what the deal with WM is. Perhaps they are severing rocketry ties with the big box stores? So many times people have been bashing Estes for catering to WM, which was not exactly something I wanted to participate in. Sorry, but I like buying discounted motors, so I didn't complain. Sure the selection could have been better...but so what? They aren't a hobby store and weren't trying to be. And now, when things start disappearing off the shelves, we feel slighted? If Estes is trying to downscale their rocketry dept. and move away from the large box stores, is that necessarily a bad thing? Seems like they are ****ed by us if they do use WM for marketing and ****ed by us if they don't.

I also had a feeling they wouldn't be at NARAM. It's almost a good thing IMO. First off, it already seems as though there is some bad blood between (BT's)Estes and NAR. Plus, it also allows some of the smaller vendors more time in the spotlight, more sales, etc. Would it change peoples opinion after being absent so long? Maybe a little. It would be a good start, but I'm not convinced it would have been the be all to end all. I can't say I missed their presence all that much. It would have been a nice bonus, but ALL the other vendors made sure everyone was happy and well taken care of. Special props to Quest, Semroc, Fliskits, Launch mag, BMS, etc.

When Shrox started asking for pics of his designs in flight, I knew then that things weren't going according to plan. Time will tell. When an artist sells off their design, they take that risk of never seeing their idea being used. Ideas get shelved all the time unfortunately. It's a crying shame if we never see these designs released.
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  #3  
Old 08-18-2008, 12:03 PM
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Hey, I loved buying motors at $2.48 and then $1.24 a pack, and I took every advantage of Target's motor clearance that I could. Visiting at least 6 stores, some more than once, and buying every motor I could find, I now have dozens of B6-4's and C6-5's that I wouldn't have bought otherwise.

I sure hope Estes stays in business, but if they don't (and I see no indication that that's coming), it won't be the end of the world.
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  #4  
Old 08-18-2008, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRThro
Hey, I loved buying motors at $2.48 and then $1.24 a pack, and I took every advantage of Target's motor clearance that I could. Visiting at least 6 stores, some more than once, and buying every motor I could find, I now have dozens of B6-4's and C6-5's that I wouldn't have bought otherwise.

I sure hope Estes stays in business, but if they don't (and I see no indication that that's coming), it won't be the end of the world.


Well, no, not the end but it would hurt. A lot. Not for the kits but for the motors. For all the engine types that Estes has discontinued over the years, they still sell a LOT of types that simply aren't available anywhere else. Nobody else sells 13mm and 24mm black powder engines, nor does anyone sell some of the types of 18mm that Estes does.
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  #5  
Old 08-18-2008, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kurtschachner
Well, no, not the end but it would hurt. A lot. Not for the kits but for the motors. For all the engine types that Estes has discontinued over the years, they still sell a LOT of types that simply aren't available anywhere else. Nobody else sells 13mm and 24mm black powder engines, nor does anyone sell some of the types of 18mm that Estes does.
Truth of the matter is that Estes' motor selection is about as healthy as it's ever been. If you count up all the types they currently offer, the total is quite close to the max. You might need to exclude the overlap year when they were selling off the last of the shorties after introducing the T motors, but otherwise, it's a pretty high number.

I can think of several types I'd like to see offered - from Estes or elsewhere - but their current selection is still pretty danged good.

FWIW, I did some totalizing a few years ago. I don't remember the exact numbers, but it was something like ~20 different types currently available, and a comparable number as the most ever.

Doug

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  #6  
Old 08-18-2008, 05:12 PM
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dwmzmm dwmzmm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Sams
Truth of the matter is that Estes' motor selection is about as healthy as it's ever been. If you count up all the types they currently offer, the total is quite close to the max. You might need to exclude the overlap year when they were selling off the last of the shorties after introducing the T motors, but otherwise, it's a pretty high number.

I can think of several types I'd like to see offered - from Estes or elsewhere - but their current selection is still pretty danged good.

FWIW, I did some totalizing a few years ago. I don't remember the exact numbers, but it was something like ~20 different types currently available, and a comparable number as the most ever.

Doug

.


Agree.

I personally enjoy having the option of getting Estes engines at the various nearby Wal-Marts in my area. Much of the time, I can usually find what I need, whether it's for sport
and/or competition flights. Add to that, having Estes engines at Wal-Marts in the Houston
area has even pressured Hobby Lobby to bring their engine prices to comparable levels.
And, from time to time, I can find great deals on some kits; once bought a Sizzler/Star Dart
combo in a blister package for only about $5. When they had a good selection of the
X-Prize kits on the shelves, the prices on most were only $8.88 (a bargain for some of the
X-Prize, but a bit more for the Gauchito, which was cheaper at Hobby Lobby). Yes, it would
be a bad omen for all of us if Estes was to pull out of Wal-Mart all together. I, for one, did
what I could to support them (Wal-Mart/Estes) when I could as well as many of our other
outstanding vendors at the same time. Hopefully, one of these "other" vendor(s) will
have the capacity to pick up where Estes (should it come to this) left off. We'll see in
the near future.
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  #7  
Old 09-04-2008, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foose4string
...Which is clearly how they want it.

Hard to say what the deal with WM is. Perhaps they are severing rocketry ties with the big box stores? So many times people have been bashing Estes for catering to WM, which was not exactly something I wanted to participate in. Sorry, but I like buying discounted motors, so I didn't complain. Sure the selection could have been better...but so what? They aren't a hobby store and weren't trying to be. And now, when things start disappearing off the shelves, we feel slighted? If Estes is trying to downscale their rocketry dept. and move away from the large box stores, is that necessarily a bad thing? Seems like they are ****ed by us if they do use WM for marketing and ****ed by us if they don't.

I also had a feeling they wouldn't be at NARAM. It's almost a good thing IMO. First off, it already seems as though there is some bad blood between (BT's)Estes and NAR. Plus, it also allows some of the smaller vendors more time in the spotlight, more sales, etc. Would it change peoples opinion after being absent so long? Maybe a little. It would be a good start, but I'm not convinced it would have been the be all to end all. I can't say I missed their presence all that much. It would have been a nice bonus, but ALL the other vendors made sure everyone was happy and well taken care of. Special props to Quest, Semroc, Fliskits, Launch mag, BMS, etc.

When Shrox started asking for pics of his designs in flight, I knew then that things weren't going according to plan. Time will tell. When an artist sells off their design, they take that risk of never seeing their idea being used. Ideas get shelved all the time unfortunately. It's a crying shame if we never see these designs released.



I don't think that decision had anything to do with Estes... WM is all about numbers... if a product is moving in sufficient numbers, it's making them money. If it's not, it isn't. Simple. I don't think the rocket product numbers justified them keeping that product in their stores, since it was simply 'taking up shelf space' and those great motor deals we got, while good for us, is coming out of WM's profit margin on that item. Look at it this way-- if you had a store, would you order and ship a product that didn't sell very well and then pay somebody to stock it and keep it organized after the kids/adults mess it up goofing with the displays and then after it sits around awhile, have to sell it at a deep discount just to free up space, or would you put something else in that shelf space that's a bigger seller and makes you more money?? Not exactly rocket science here....

The WM's in this area, especially the new ones, are phasing out their plastic model sections and getting rid of all of it, probably to put in another aisle of Bratz or WWF action figures or something... plastic models just aren't big sellers anymore, and since rockets are on the same aisle and probably have similar or lower sales numbers... you do the math...

Same reason a lot of brick-n-mortar hobby shops are having trouble... OL JR
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  #8  
Old 09-05-2008, 01:30 PM
foose4string foose4string is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luke strawwalker
I don't think that decision had anything to do with Estes... WM is all about numbers... if a product is moving in sufficient numbers, it's making them money. If it's not, it isn't. Simple. I don't think the rocket product numbers justified them keeping that product in their stores, since it was simply 'taking up shelf space' and those great motor deals we got, while good for us, is coming out of WM's profit margin on that item. Look at it this way-- if you had a store, would you order and ship a product that didn't sell very well and then pay somebody to stock it and keep it organized after the kids/adults mess it up goofing with the displays and then after it sits around awhile, have to sell it at a deep discount just to free up space, or would you put something else in that shelf space that's a bigger seller and makes you more money?? Not exactly rocket science here....

The WM's in this area, especially the new ones, are phasing out their plastic model sections and getting rid of all of it, probably to put in another aisle of Bratz or WWF action figures or something... plastic models just aren't big sellers anymore, and since rockets are on the same aisle and probably have similar or lower sales numbers... you do the math...

Same reason a lot of brick-n-mortar hobby shops are having trouble... OL JR


I got nervous when I responded earlier. It seems like we go through this every year when WM does their resets. The very same stores that are discounting motors have already allocated new shelf space for more motors. So while certain things are offered at a discount during seasonal resets, it doesn't necessarily mean they going to discontinue a product entirely. WM can afford to take a loss on certain items. And who's to say they are taking a loss? Do you know what WM pays per pack? I don't.

Much has to do with location also, and regional sales. Some store don't carry any rocketry items, while others may prosper carrying rocketry stuff. I talked to a toy dept. manager a year or two ago at the WM that I frequent the most. It was during a fall/xmas reset, just like what's happening now. I didn't see any Estes stuff for a few weeks and asked if they were going to stop carrying it. She said, "Not likely, the rocketry stuff is a hot seller. We are consistently replenishing stock." A week later the starter sets, motors, and launchable packs returned. I must have missed the clearance motors(if there were any to be had) that time around.
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  #9  
Old 09-05-2008, 05:26 PM
Rocket Doctor Rocket Doctor is offline
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It is true that WM is getting rid of their platic models.

As far as motors go, maybe the reason is that WM will be getting a different mix of motors in their retailer packs.

It made no sence to keep having A10-3T's sitting around, when, there weren't any rockets to use them.

Most of the older retailer packs had a large selects of those mini's.

As stated above, when WM does a reset, you have no idea what will stay and what will go. I also spoke to a toy dept manager who stated to me that rockets were big sellers. I only wish that they would change the selection of starter sets and bring back some kits, once you have the starter set, then what do you do.

And, it's not Estes who says what goes into a WM. it's the WM buyers that make the decision. Maybe their buyers need to be "educated" on the products that they bring into the stores, I know one thing, many of the store managers have no clue, and, I have spoke with a few of them, including a distribution manager.

Also, go down the clearane aisle, see how many items are theere, and, when a reset is done, those same items seem to appear out of knowhere.
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  #10  
Old 09-05-2008, 11:34 PM
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Went to one of my local nearby Wal Mart the other day and got a number of C6's packs
marked $4 per pack. My wife (who works there) told me tonight (a few minutes ago, in fact)
that the price is now $3 per pack. Guess I'll have to head over there tomorrow and see what I need versus what I can buy. With the excellent launch site we now have down in
Needville, TX the C6's will come in very handy .
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