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  #11  
Old 03-30-2011, 05:58 PM
stefanj stefanj is offline
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There was an article accompanying that MRN plan, showing some of the Saturn V variants you described.

Another Sat V variant would have, as the third stage, a scaled-down version of the Orion nuclear bomb drive.
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Old 03-30-2011, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanj
There was an article accompanying that MRN plan, showing some of the Saturn V variants you described.

Another Sat V variant would have, as the third stage, a scaled-down version of the Orion nuclear bomb drive.


Nuclear bomb drive?? I think not!

Now there WERE plans for nuclear upper stages for Saturn V and for in-space propulsion. Several test engines were built and test fired at the Nevada Test Site (IIRC). The Project was called "NERVA". It was basically a nuclear reactor in which the nuclear fuel superheated propellant pumped into the reactor, which was then expelled through an expansion nozzle under high pressure to create thrust.

You can look up NERVA and I'm sure there's a lot of good info...

later! OL JR
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  #13  
Old 03-30-2011, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luke strawwalker
Nuclear bomb drive?? I think not!



Think so!

I have a book on it, but it is in the other room. I'll post the title tomorrow.

The concept essentially feeds a number of nuclear bomblets behind a thrust plate where they are detonated. The research team has actually tested a small flying model of it using pyrotechnics on a beach in California. For anyone who has ridden a steam train, it would probably feel somewhat like that.


Bill
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  #14  
Old 03-30-2011, 10:02 PM
stefanj stefanj is offline
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I knew about the NERVA upper stage. Plans were to use it for an unmanned visit to Venus and Mars.

But, yes, seriously, there were concept-level plans for an Orion stage on the Saturn V. This was the last-gasp concept for the project before its funding was cut.

The book is Project Orion by George Dyson. His father, Freeman Dyson, was a major figure in the Orion Project.
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Old 03-30-2011, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill
Think so!

I have a book on it, but it is in the other room. I'll post the title tomorrow.

The concept essentially feeds a number of nuclear bomblets behind a thrust plate where they are detonated. The research team has actually tested a small flying model of it using pyrotechnics on a beach in California. For anyone who has ridden a steam train, it would probably feel somewhat like that.


Bill


Yes I'm familiar with the Project Orion of the late 50's... interplanetary spaceships driven by nuclear explosions impinging upon a 'thrust plate' behind the vehicle...

But it's completely different than the nuclear thermal rockets proposed for upperstages for Saturn V and NOVA vehicles...

Later! OL JR
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  #16  
Old 03-30-2011, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanj
I knew about the NERVA upper stage. Plans were to use it for an unmanned visit to Venus and Mars.

But, yes, seriously, there were concept-level plans for an Orion stage on the Saturn V. This was the last-gasp concept for the project before its funding was cut.

The book is Project Orion by George Dyson. His father, Freeman Dyson, was a major figure in the Orion Project.


If true it's certainly the first I've heard of it... but then again I'm sure there are lots of things I haven't heard of...

BUT, the idea of using nuclear explosive propulsion on a Saturn vehicle is patently rediculous... can't believe anyone would SERIOUSLY propose it... but then again, with gov't funding on the line, NO request is condidered too silly-- ask and ye shall receive... LOL

Later! OL JR
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  #17  
Old 03-31-2011, 11:53 AM
stefanj stefanj is offline
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The original Orion concept would have launched from the ground, using little nukes detonated under a 133' wide steel plate. The ship would have big inflatable shock absorbers to keep the crew from getting shaken to death.

The calculated specific impulse was incredible, something like 10,000 seconds. More than an ion drive, but with enough thrust to lift a destroyer-sized spaceship into orbit. Trips to Mars and Saturn were laid out.

It sounded like a great idea in the days when fallout from above-ground tests was shrugged off.

The Saturn-stage version was a fallback. The nukes would be set off only after orbital insertion.

Freeman Dyson gladly killed his baby by advocating for the treaties that banned nuclear testing in space.
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  #18  
Old 03-31-2011, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanj
The original Orion concept would have launched from the ground, using little nukes detonated under a 133' wide steel plate. The ship would have big inflatable shock absorbers to keep the crew from getting shaken to death.

The calculated specific impulse was incredible, something like 10,000 seconds. More than an ion drive, but with enough thrust to lift a destroyer-sized spaceship into orbit. Trips to Mars and Saturn were laid out.

It sounded like a great idea in the days when fallout from above-ground tests was shrugged off.

The Saturn-stage version was a fallback. The nukes would be set off only after orbital insertion.

Freeman Dyson gladly killed his baby by advocating for the treaties that banned nuclear testing in space.


Hmmm... learn something new every day...

The original Orion was something, though... insane, but it was audacious!

Kinda reminds me of an idea I've got as part of a story I've been hashing out about the world after the Cuban Missile Crisis ignited WWIII and caused a lot of damage in the US, and virtually sent the Soviet Union back to the Stone Age...
In a world already heavily contaminated by radioactivity and suffering from limited distribution and supply of oil due to the impacts of the war, nucler power becomes a main source of power. Nuclear powered ships become the main sea transport, and nuclear powered railway locomotives (think of a Big Boy on Steroids) become the main surface land transportation. Little risk of contamination since everything is already contaminated to some degree, so nobody ever worried about it. Plus, after going for YEARS without electricity and transportation, the ready supply of both via nuclear power didn't raise any eyebrows, because it was better than doing without!

Later! OL JR
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  #19  
Old 03-31-2011, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luke strawwalker
Yes I'm familiar with the Project Orion of the late 50's... interplanetary spaceships driven by nuclear explosions impinging upon a 'thrust plate' behind the vehicle...
There's a photo of it in an early 80's CRm.

There have been over 3300 nukes. A single spaceship that is "ignited" in orbit is entirely practical right now. Radical I know.

Jerry
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  #20  
Old 03-31-2011, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stefanj
I knew about the NERVA upper stage. Plans were to use it for an unmanned visit to Venus and Mars.

But, yes, seriously, there were concept-level plans for an Orion stage on the Saturn V. This was the last-gasp concept for the project before its funding was cut.

The book is Project Orion by George Dyson. His father, Freeman Dyson, was a major figure in the Orion Project.


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