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  #41  
Old 05-09-2012, 12:10 PM
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Cohetero-negro Cohetero-negro is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jharding58
Collectors buy packaging. A re-release should not provide too great an impact on the "collector" market since it is the original release which holds the value. Since a re-release does not impact upon the scarcity of the original format of the release (for example a MIB Little Joe II) should retain the collectible value even if the model was to be re-released tomorrow. The builder may be unwilling to pay a premium price for the olds version, but a first issue should retain value for the collector.



What Mojo said: "Partly true............but the re-release of the Orbital Transport buried prices for those (they used to consistently go in the $200 range), and Semroc's introduction of their Mars Lander did the same to the prices of the vintage Estes kits (again, they used to get $200 and up, now $100 is pretty much the ceiling)."

I know mojo and he is a long time seller/collector; what he is saying is true.

Look at it this way, the reason why the original LJII is so friggin expensive is because there are no alternatives offered by any vendor. Heck, our own Sandman offered his kit for $140 a few years back, and now those things are in the $200 - $300 range ... so its NOT the Centuri printed cardboard buyers are only after!

Oh and Gordon, nothing personal, you do good work, but I don't think 30 - 50 years from now, there is going to be a 'RoachWerks' collecting frenzy for your kits as there is on ebay for Estes and Centuri kits. I have a few of your offerings, they are excellent and worth every penny paid, but it is the LACK of scale offerings that make your and others scale manufacture kits so in demand. Please make a 4" diameter Pershing 1A kit, and I will take 3, maybe 4! You know me, I made a few purchases from your table at the last NARAM so I am talking truth to you and this group.

On another note, I am not a big fan of flis kits, but I have purchased TWO of every scale/semi-scale offering he has released. Why? Answer: Not because I am expecting ebay delights 30+ years from now should I sell them, but because there are no other offerings of the subject. Oh, personally Jim Flis's most under rated offering is the Thunderbird : http://www.fliskits.com/products/01prod_fs.htm

It is a FANTASTIC offering and builds to MUSEUM quality if you have the skills. Jim could charge double what he is asking for the kit and I would STILL buy it! Darn right I would!

Most people, even crazy people realize that a Centuri Little Joe II is no where NEAR the $400 - $600 they bring in; its the rarity of the kit, and not the Centuri Logo printed on card board collectors are after. Heck the LJII could have been made by Buster Brown shoes and it wouldn't matter ... its the kit we are after and not really the logo ... the logo just happens to be affixed to the outside of the kit

Jonathan
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  #42  
Old 05-09-2012, 12:11 PM
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P.s. another way of looking at it is like this: When you buy a 65 Ford Mustang, are you buying it because its a Ford logo on it, or because its a MUSTANG!
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  #43  
Old 05-10-2012, 01:15 AM
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I fail to understand why it's a good idea for a manufacturer to "lock himself out of the market" for selling re-releases of popular kits simply to prop up the overrated market values for a few silly collectors... Obviously if there is demand there for the kit, (as a build and fly model) to the point that it drives up demand and therefore prices, it's to EVERYONE's advantege (other than silly kit collectors who pay too much in the first place and want to protect their "over-investment") including the manufacturer to re-release that kit at a profitable price point... it drives down the kit price for the "average modeler" wanting to actually build and fly the thing, and leaves the 'collectible originals' intact as-bagged for the collectors to fight over in bidding wars... without requiring the average builder wanting one to have to compete against them and therefore driving up the price...

I don't have a problem with collectors paying anything they want for whatever kit or collectible they want... even when *I* think it's rediculously stupid prices... but I don't see the logic for the other 99% of rocketeers and manufacturers who could ALL be made happy by a re-release of "building kits" (versus original collectibles) having to "do without" to "protect the investment" of a few overzealous collectors who paid WAY too much for their "collectible" when demand was higher because some folks actually wanted to BUILD and FLY the darn kit... "Regular" rocketeers are under no obligation to "protect" the prices and therefore the investment that a handful of "collectors" have sunk into a particular rocket...

I had a buddy and his wife collecting comic books as an "investment" and yeah, they took a bath too before it was over with... pretty silly to me, and it is to them as well, NOW, AFTER the fact... But if you got the money and that's your jollies, by all means go for it... just don't expect others to do without to protect YOUR investment...

It's sorta like how so many businesses today are squeezing out or buying up cheaper alternatives and taking them off the market to "force" you into accepting and paying for a more expensive alternative... the idea REPELS me...

Later! OL JR
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  #44  
Old 05-10-2012, 03:12 AM
A Fish Named Wallyum A Fish Named Wallyum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luke strawwalker
I had a buddy and his wife collecting comic books as an "investment" and yeah, they took a bath too before it was over with... pretty silly to me, and it is to them as well, NOW, AFTER the fact... But if you got the money and that's your jollies, by all means go for it... just don't expect others to do without to protect YOUR investment...


That's just stupidity. Everyone knows that Beanie Babys are the best retirement investment.
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Build floor: Centuri Design Contest F-150 Hurricane Estes - Low Boom SST Semroc - Gee'Hod, Shrike, SST Shuttle

In paint: Canaroc Starfighter Scorpion Estes F-22 Air Superiority Fighter, Solar Sailer II Semroc Cyber III

Ready to fly: Estes - Multi-Roc, Solar Sailer II Semroc - Earmark, Snake Jumper
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  #45  
Old 05-10-2012, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A Fish Named Wallyum
That's just stupidity. Everyone knows that Beanie Babys are the best retirement investment.


Nope...I thought everyone knew that Pokemon Cards are the golden ticket to blissful retirement!
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  #46  
Old 05-10-2012, 07:53 AM
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I have you ALL beat as far as financial security goes!

I have $50K in ENRON stock!
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  #47  
Old 05-10-2012, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luke strawwalker
I fail to understand why it's a good idea for a manufacturer to "lock himself out of the market" for selling re-releases of popular kits simply to prop up the overrated market values for a few silly collectors... Obviously if there is demand there for the kit, (as a build and fly model) to the point that it drives up demand and therefore prices, it's to EVERYONE's advantege (other than silly kit collectors who pay too much in the first place and want to protect their "over-investment") including the manufacturer to re-release that kit at a profitable price point... it drives down the kit price for the "average modeler" wanting to actually build and fly the thing, and leaves the 'collectible originals' intact as-bagged for the collectors to fight over in bidding wars... without requiring the average builder wanting one to have to compete against them and therefore driving up the price...

I don't have a problem with collectors paying anything they want for whatever kit or collectible they want... even when *I* think it's rediculously stupid prices... but I don't see the logic for the other 99% of rocketeers and manufacturers who could ALL be made happy by a re-release of "building kits" (versus original collectibles) having to "do without" to "protect the investment" of a few overzealous collectors who paid WAY too much for their "collectible" when demand was higher because some folks actually wanted to BUILD and FLY the darn kit... "Regular" rocketeers are under no obligation to "protect" the prices and therefore the investment that a handful of "collectors" have sunk into a particular rocket...

I had a buddy and his wife collecting comic books as an "investment" and yeah, they took a bath too before it was over with... pretty silly to me, and it is to them as well, NOW, AFTER the fact... But if you got the money and that's your jollies, by all means go for it... just don't expect others to do without to protect YOUR investment...

It's sorta like how so many businesses today are squeezing out or buying up cheaper alternatives and taking them off the market to "force" you into accepting and paying for a more expensive alternative... the idea REPELS me...

Later! OL JR


JR,

Its all about faith in that you believe you will get more later.

Look at the Stock Market, its all about HOPE and FAITH that you will get more $$$ in the future for your investment today.

Balderdash as you can't take it with you, so enjoy it now; within reason of course.

The Centuri Little Joe II molds were destroyed in that Estes fire years ago ... so the rumor says ... same with the Cox molds for their Little Joe. It is my understanding that if the molds were to be created in today's money, it would EASILY be over $100,000.00 to do so.

Then you have to factor in development costs, and need for profits, and that causes Estes to say no to a re-release. During the lifespan of the Centuri production run, only a few thousand 1/45 scale LJII's were even made. They were NOT a hot seller and it took years for Lee to finally get rid of them all! Matter of fact, the year they were last available, the were marked down in price to the same value as when they were first made available and there was a special sale of the remaining stock to fund the USA international team!

I save for future, but I am NOT going to place all my money in a mattress of bury in a mayonnaise jar in the backyard! While I am still young, and can jump, and run, I will enjoy it! I feel sorry for those who save all their lives, and on their 75th birthday go on vacation to some exotic location and never really have the true experience of the activity because they are leashed to an Oxygen tank or stroller.

On another note, NCR kit prices are friggin ridiculous! I want to know why people spend what they do for kits, when most if not all, can be cloned for a fraction of the price?! No really! Estes/NCR 4 motor cluster Patriot ... $300.00+ ... WHY? Is there some Platinum engine hook used in the kit? Were the centering rings made of gold?

Oh I am not jealous as I have both the NCR single motor Patriot and the Estes/NCR 4 motor cluster ... I just want to remove the valuables from the kits before I sell them!

Platinum is currently trading for $1500.00 an ounce :

http://www.kitco.com/charts/liveplatinum.html

Jonathan
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  #48  
Old 05-10-2012, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pantherjon
Nope...I thought everyone knew that Pokemon Cards are the golden ticket to blissful retirement!



John,

Don't laugh, but a full set of Magic the Gathering Alpha or Beta cars will bring you $30,000.00 - $50,000.00!

http://www.blackborder.com/cgi-bin/...&sid=mxiLtOsisY

When the bottom falls out of Magic, I will be there to catch cards!

Jonathan
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  #49  
Old 05-10-2012, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A Fish Named Wallyum
That's just stupidity. Everyone knows that Beanie Babys are the best retirement investment.


Hahahaha... That's what happens when your wife's friend marries a comic book fiend and one's hobbies and interests drive what they think to be a "good investment"... yeah, there are a lot more comic book fiends out there and yeah, when times were good and money was flowing prodigiously, lots of folks paid "silly prices" for stuff and drove the values through the roof... but like every other 'investment' the trick is to 'buy low, sell high'... "buying in" at the peak of the market is never a good idea...

When the economy hit the skids, the prices for most of these sorts of "investments" hit the basement as well... classic "bubble valuation"... will they ever come back?? Maybe... people with extra money to spend often spend it in rediculous ways and rediculous amounts, as is their right... but an "investment"?? Hardly!

But, that's the nature of things... people are paying rather stupid prices for land right now too... but I've seen farmland go for less than 1/4 of the current prices... so even THAT isn't really an investment, although farmland will always have SOME Intrinsic value, no matter what its monetary value may be (as determined by outside forces). At least you can feed yourself with farmland, whereas comic books aren't very edible (even with tabasco sauce! LOL) Neither are rockets here tell... LOL...

I've got a buddy who restores antique cars, but he's pretty practical when considering the 'investment' value of them... the markets for SOME cars just isn't there... he restored a 53 Mercury Monterrey that I helped him some on and he JUST BROKE EVEN getting his money back out of it, because that car is not in "high demand" with collectors. The guy he sold it to was bugging his quite a bit, acting as if he "overpaid" because certain small things about the car weren't to his liking... oh well, that's the nature of collecting cars! While the 57 Chevy is in high demand and one can actually make pretty good money restoring those (if you can find decent restorable cars and do good work, and have a good source of parts) you also have to sink a LOT of money into one, and who's to say what the value will be a year from now, or five years from now?? These sort of dynamics are constantly changing, especially as the baby boomers age and can't get around as good, and eventually will all die off... what interest will "wage earners with disposable money to spend" have in 57 Chevy's in another decade or two... kids born in the 80's, 90's, or 00's will have NO CONNECTION to the past like that and probably won't be willing to shell out money on such an ancient car... sure there'll always be a handful of antiquities collectors bidding, but that's a MUCH smaller pool of "customers" and therefore MUCH less competition in bidding... hence lower prices.

NEVER take a HOBBY too seriously and start convincing yourself its an INVESTMENT... it's NOT! While YOU may see incredible value in a particular old rocket kit, or car, or comic book, to the other 99% of the world it's just silly or practically worthless... and when the rubber hits the road and the market dries up for whatever reason, the money is gone and nobody's willing to shell out what YOU paid for it!

Later! OL JR
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  #50  
Old 05-10-2012, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pantherjon
Nope...I thought everyone knew that Pokemon Cards are the golden ticket to blissful retirement!


I had some kids on the bus that sat right behind me, every day, trading Pokemon cards... they'd get louder and louder, either in excitement or agitation, arguing over some card or other... and I'd have to "shush" them because they'd get on my last nerve... this one kid had a stack of cards rubber banded together, and that darn stack of cards was at least 4 inches thick I'm tellin' ya... he could barely carry the darn thing!

Finally, one day, after shushing several arguments over Pokemon cards, I got a mischievous idea and decided to pull a joke on the kids... I innocently said, "Say, do yall know what "Pokemon" means in Japanese??" The kids bit and wide-eyed said, "NO!?? What does it mean??"

I replied deadpan, "Pokemon comes from the Japanese phrase "PO' K'eye' Moan" which literally translates as "We've got your money and we're NOT giving it back!"

The kids were like "REALLY!?? WOW! THAT'S cool... "

They didn't get it... which was almost as funny as the joke itself... at least *I* had a good laugh! Kids today are SO easy to put one over on...



Later! OL JR
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