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  #41  
Old 04-07-2008, 08:06 AM
PaulK PaulK is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Doctor
The initial testing was done in Pompton Plains NJ, and then moved to Denville NJ and Lake denmark Nj (part of Picatinny Arsenal) the test stands for both the XLR-11 and XLR-99 are still in tact.

You can also find a new XLR-99 at Edwards AFB in CA and at the Teterboro Air Museum in NJ.

Their main office and assembly plant is still intact in denville NJ off of Ford Raod and has two plaues out front.

Reaction Motors was purchaed by Thiokol and became a division of them and eventually went out of business (RMI) in 1970.

The Smithsonian Air & Space Museum in washington has a few artifacts from RMI, including their first engine and first test stand.
Check out "At the edge of space", by Milt Thompson, from your local library. I recently finished it; fascinating. It has a good combination of technical info on the X-15 program and first-hand personal experience on many of the flights.
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  #42  
Old 04-07-2008, 12:15 PM
lurker01 lurker01 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWolman
I was under the impression that Centuri never made motors, that they were always made by Estes: under a licensing agreement up until Damon acquired both Estes and Centuri, and then together as the combined company.

Is this not the case? I would be surprised to hear that Centuri started making motors after Estes had been making their motors for years and that they were a combined company.

I know that I have a couple of Estes green motors, and some of the long Centuri mini motors in both blue and green.

Thanks


DWolman,

Centuri did make their own motors; but not the Estes style 13 and 18mm types. They made the Hercules and the Min-Max motors, then the AP Enerjet motors. Centuri did indeed contract Estes to make the minis and the standard size. Centuri stopped their larger motor making when they lost their Scottsdale AZ motor plant. I don't remember the details; it was either a fire or a bad dsert storm. The location of the original Centuri motor facility is now the location of the Scottsdale Airport. And I must say, the ballon rides out of there are FANTASTIC!

Robert
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  #43  
Old 04-07-2008, 12:23 PM
Rocket Doctor Rocket Doctor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker01
DWolman,

Centuri did make their own motors; but not the Estes style 13 and 18mm types. They made the Hercules and the Min-Max motors, then the AP Enerjet motors. Centuri did indeed contract Estes to make the minis and the standard size. Centuri stopped their larger motor making when they lost their Scottsdale AZ motor plant. I don't remember the details; it was either a fire or a bad dsert storm. The location of the original Centuri motor facility is now the location of the Scottsdale Airport. And I must say, the ballon rides out of there are FANTASTIC!

Robert


From what I understand Centuri DID make their own 18mm motors and the machines ended up over at estes eventually after they merged, but, Estes never used the centuri machines.

And, I also heard that centuri did have a fire and that one employee was killed and shortly after that, they dumped their rocketry line.
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  #44  
Old 04-07-2008, 02:37 PM
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Doug Sams Doug Sams is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Doctor
From what I understand Centuri DID make their own 18mm motors and the machines ended up over at estes eventually after they merged, but, Estes never used the centuri machines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker01
Centuri did make their own motors; but not the Estes style 13 and 18mm types. They made the Hercules and the Min-Max motors, then the AP Enerjet motors. Centuri did indeed contract Estes to make the minis and the standard size. Centuri stopped their larger motor making when they lost their Scottsdale AZ motor plant. I don't remember the details; it was either a fire or a bad dsert storm.
What I've heard is somewhere in between, so underneath all this, we're getting close

My take is, besides making the Mini-Max and Enerjet, that Centuri made their own 13mm motors (up until the merger), and that they made only a very limited number of 18mm motors, and only for a short time. This time was likely somewhere in the interval between the introduction of the 13mm motors (circa 1972) and the subsequent acquisition by Damon (circa 1976).

Keep in mind that Centuri's early 13mm motor had a unique length - 2.5" - different than that of Estes and MPC. That doesn't preclude them being made elsewhere, but it indicates they were likely made away from Estes and MPC, and thus likely at Centuri.

As for 18's, I have seen Centuri B14's with the graphite nozzles, so I'm pretty sure they were Centuri made. But, even with the machines in place, I know getting a given motor set up and qualified for production is not trivial. There is lots of testing and starting over involved (lots of "oh sh@#s"). When you're running a business and you already have a qualified source (Estes), setting up your own production line is akin to fixin' what ain't broke. You got to pick your battles. So I suspect Centuri may have never produced more than a few types of 18mm motors before the merger.

Given that Estes ultimately killed the B14, I might guess that was impetus for Centuri to make them, but the motors weren't EOL'd for another three years after the merger. Still, if Estes had given them a heads-up, that could be the case.

And in that same vain, since Centuri introduced the C5 in 1976, I am inclined to conclude they built them at Centuri.

So, besides the 13mm motors, some B14's and the C5's were made at Centuri (IMO), but likely not many other 18mm motor types.

A little input from Vern and Lee could clear it all up

Doug


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  #45  
Old 04-07-2008, 03:09 PM
shockwaveriderz shockwaveriderz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Sams
What I've heard is somewhere in between, so underneath all this, we're getting close

My take is, besides making the Mini-Max and Enerjet, that Centuri made their own 13mm motors (up until the merger), and that they made only a very limited number of 18mm motors, and only for a short time. This time was likely somewhere in the interval between the introduction of the 13mm motors (circa 1972) and the subsequent acquisition by Damon (circa 1976).

Keep in mind that Centuri's early 13mm motor had a unique length - 2.5" - different than that of Estes and MPC. That doesn't preclude them being made elsewhere, but it indicates they were likely made away from Estes and MPC, and thus likely at Centuri.

As for 18's, I have seen Centuri B14's with the graphite nozzles, so I'm pretty sure they were Centuri made. But, even with the machines in place, I know getting a given motor set up and qualified for production is not trivial. There is lots of testing and starting over involved (lots of "oh sh@#s"). When you're running a business and you already have a qualified source (Estes), setting up your own production line is akin to fixin' what ain't broke. You got to pick your battles. So I suspect Centuri may have never produced more than a few types of 18mm motors before the merger.

Given that Estes ultimately killed the B14, I might guess that was impetus for Centuri to make them, but the motors weren't EOL'd for another three years after the merger. Still, if Estes had given them a heads-up, that could be the case.

And in that same vain, since Centuri introduced the C5 in 1976, I am inclined to conclude they built them at Centuri.

So, besides the 13mm motors, some B14's and the C5's were made at Centuri (IMO), but likely not many other 18mm motor types.

A little input from Vern and Lee could clear it all up

Doug


.


Doug, Damon purchased Centuri in 1971-72.


Centuri did for a short while make their own 13/18mm model rocket motors. But it was for only a relatively short time; approximately 1970-71-72approximately.

The C5's were only manufactured at Estes; BUT, they were the result of Larry Brown of Centuri wanting a motor that Estes didn't have. Of course. the C5 was later offered by Estes. The C5 and the later B8 both used a new core that was Formed and not Drilled like the previous Cored motors like the B14.

If you look at Doug's Fine Estes-Centuri motor lineage chart, the C5 was made by Estes for Centuri; later Estes used the C5 nozzle in the new Estes B8 motor that replaced the B14.

It is very possible that Centuri made their own B14 motors. Lee ihas said the new motor facility they built, make A,B and C motors. and BP Mini-Max.

And yes, Both Vern or Lee could pinpoint thie times better.
Most of the above info is in the 2 Centuri/Piester interviews and the Vern Estes interviews.


EDIT: I wnt back and reviewed the Model Rocketry magazines from 1971-2 (which also included the NAR's Model Rocketeer), and the MPC 13mm MiniJets were publicly demoed at the March 1971 MIt Convention while the estes 13mm _t motors were 1st demoed at the Philadephia HIAA Trade SHow in June 1971. There is absolutely no mention of Centuri being purchased by DAMON, not any information about the Centuri 13mm-M motors.

This doesn't mean that DAMON had not purchased in 1971, it just means there was no notification of it in MRm. I might add that when DAMAOn purchased estes, MRm did report it a few months later.

Finally, the MAY 1971 Model Rocketeer has a engine certfication lsting and ONLY the MPc Minijets were certfied at that time. MPC minijets and Estes _t mini's were used extensively and sold at NARAM-13, and I know this because I was there and purchased a boatload of both to take home with me.

Finally, the Centuri -M motors don't appear until the combined 1974-75 catalog. Lee Piester in his interview said he left Centuri in 1974. They also show up in the January 1975 Centuri Rocket times.

I can't tell if these were the orginal 2.25"(?) Centuri minimotors or the lateer 1.75" Centuri minimotos.

hth

terry dean
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Last edited by shockwaveriderz : 04-07-2008 at 05:29 PM.
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  #46  
Old 04-07-2008, 03:13 PM
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ghrocketman ghrocketman is offline
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C5's were never made by Centuri; they were always made by Estes even when Estes did not catalog them and were only in the Centuri Catalog. This engine came out several years after Estes and Centuri were both owned by Damon.

Centuri offered the C5-3S and C5-0S.
The "S" stood form "Super" C as they have a much higher initial thrust spike than a "regular" C6.

Estes never offered an "Estes Branded" C5-0, they only offered the C5-3. Why I do not know.
Interestingly, the first Estes "branded" C5-3 engines came out about 2-3 years after the Centuri ones and the first year of them they were actually labeled C5-3S...Estes changed them to simply C5-3 about the same time Centuri ceased to actually exist other than on paper as a holding company.
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  #47  
Old 04-07-2008, 08:05 PM
Initiator001 Initiator001 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shockwaveriderz
Doug, Damon purchased Centuri in 1971-72.




Damon purchased Centuri in 1970 (Source: Lee Piester).

Bob
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  #48  
Old 04-07-2008, 09:44 PM
shockwaveriderz shockwaveriderz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Initiator001
Damon purchased Centuri in 1970 (Source: Lee Piester).

Bob


Bob, in Matt Steel's interview with Lee Piester in the LAUNCH magazine, Lee makes 2 references to when he sold Centuri to DAMON.

"Ultimately we made the decision to sell Centuri to DAMON " This would LATE 1971, because he also says, "...While I was attending one of the NARAM"S in Houston, at the Manned Spacecraft Center, an agent of the DAMON Corporation approached me and asked if I would be interested in selling Centuri. Damon was the same company that a year and a half prior, had purchased Estes Industries...."

See pg 47-48 from the 9/10 3006 LAUNCH.

The NARAM he is talking about is NARAM-12 in August 1971. .

Jay Gomer aka Centuri Guy interviewed Lee in 2002 (published in Jan/Feb 2003 SR and wrote, " Piester sold Centuri Engineering Company to Boston-based Damon Corporation in 1972, just a year and a half after Damon purchased Estes. "

hth

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  #49  
Old 04-07-2008, 10:08 PM
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well, the deal with Estes was in late 1969 (as stated in the 1970 catalog), so a year and a half would put it sometime in early 1971.

NARAM 12 was in August 1970, so early '71 would seem a reasonable date.

At NARAM 13, I heard the rumor (I assume they were rumors... we didn't stay at the main motel, so maybe there was better info there) that Damon now owned Centuri as well. Both companies had trailers on the field as range stores. Estes had a longer blue trailer while Centuri's was a smaller red one (looked a little more beat up as well) but both companies had a good bit of swag to give away, indicating an infusion of capital.
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  #50  
Old 04-07-2008, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Royatl
well, the deal with Estes was in late 1969 (as stated in the 1970 catalog), so a year and a half would put it sometime in early 1971.

NARAM 12 was in August 1970, so early '71 would seem a reasonable date.

At NARAM 13, I heard the rumor (I assume they were rumors... we didn't stay at the main motel, so maybe there was better info there) that Damon now owned Centuri as well. Both companies had trailers on the field as range stores. Estes had a longer blue trailer while Centuri's was a smaller red one (looked a little more beat up as well) but both companies had a good bit of swag to give away, indicating an infusion of capital.


It'll be nice if both Estes and Centuri came back and brought these trailers you speak of
to future NARAM's (and NSL & NARCON's)....
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