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  #1  
Old 08-07-2008, 07:18 PM
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K8OSU K8OSU is offline
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Default A Couple of Questions

After buying an Estes launch kit on a whim a few weeks ago, I think that I am becoming a full-fledged BAR, and want to start building some kits to start off with. However, I was never really good at building them when I was a kid, and, while I've searched through the archives, I still had a few questions before I got started.

First of all, what is a fairly straight-forward kit to build for someone who hasn't built one in years? I was thinking about the Baby Bertha, since it looks like it would be an easy build. I was never very good at building the more advanced kits, so I want to start off slowly!

When applying the sanding sealer to the balsa fins, is it best to apply the sealer before attaching them to the body tube, or wait until they are attached? I know that I'll probably be using my Aero Gloss to fill in the twist in the tube, and I wasn't sure if it's easier to do it all at once or do it before the fins are attached.

After looking through the archives, I'm still a bit unsure as to what type of primer to use. I'm limited to using spray paints, since I don't have an air brush (or anywhere to put one, for that matter!). I did see that some people recommended spray-on Kilz. Where might that be sold, since Lowe's did not seem to have it when I was there earlier today.

Lastly, after the model is painted, what type of clear top coat could I use that can be sprayed on?

Thanks in advance for answering my questions. I appreciate any advice!
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  #2  
Old 08-07-2008, 08:43 PM
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Deron,

First of all....Welcome to the forum!

Ok...the Baby Bertha is a good kit to start out with. Rather large fins that are forgiving if not glued on straight. Motor mount so you don't have to worry about friction fits. Parachute recovery. There are others that work well also. Just about any skill level one kit....well, kits with either parachute or streamer recovery.

As for sealing the balsa, it's best to wait till you get them on the model......for now. Go ahead and do some sanding of the fins while they are still in the balsa sheet....use a sanding block with 220 or 320 grit sandpaper and sand both sides of the sheet in the direction of the grain. You'll have most of your sanding done before you attach the fins to the body tube.

Spray Kilz is getting hard to find now that Wal-Mart isn't carrying it. I'm surprised you can't find it at Lowe's. Just about any hardware store should carry it. Or you can try Hobby Lobby. But don't fret. If you can't find it, just get a cheap can of primer from Wal-Mart (color doesn't matter since you sand most of it off anyway.)

For clear coating, most of us here prefer Future acrylic floor finish, but it's brush on unless you have an air brush. Otherwise, you can use Krylon Clear on just about any paint. Just check capatibility on a scrap piece of material before you spray your rocket.

Last of all, check the NAR website for a local section near you and go check them out. They can help you with a lot of the things you need to know and also provide a site to launch from. I'm sure there are several clubs in the Columbus area. www.nar.org

Oh yeah.....take lots of pictures and learn how to post them!
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  #3  
Old 08-07-2008, 08:57 PM
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Welcome back.

I like to do all my filling before the components are added together, it's a lot easier to sand that way.


I laminate almost all of my fins these days with 60lb paper. I just don't have the patience to fill, sand, fill, sand, fill ..... I do seal the edges with a dope based filler though.

Baby bertha is a great choice.
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  #4  
Old 08-07-2008, 09:58 PM
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Welcome aboard! I agree with all that has been said with one exception. I absolutely despise putting on sanding sealer after the fins are mounted. I always fill my fins prior to gluing them to the body tube.

I also have started papering my fins instead. I use self adhesive paper (like full page sized AVERY mailing labels), cut them slightly oversize for the fins, apply to one side of the fin, trim to the fin with an X-acto knife, and then repeat the process for the other side of the fin. I then seal the edges with CA (super glue). Make sure you don't put the CA on the root edge of the fin. That is the part that attaches to the body tube. This takes a little effort to master, so I would stick to the sanding sealer to build your confidence a bit first.

Being that you weren't a big builder the first time around, you might want to think about some of the easy to build and fly kits that are out there. Something with a plastic fin can will go together quickly and get you in the air. Any of the Quest quick-kits on this page come to mind. I built the EZ-Payloader in one evening and found it to be thoroughly enjoyable. The Estes Blue Ninja was also a one evening build. Not bad for a D engine rocket.

You will get a lot of differing opinions around here. Very few are right or wrong, just a matter of personal preference. Try a few different methods, and settle on the ones you like best. Just make sure you have fun in the process.
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  #5  
Old 08-07-2008, 10:11 PM
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Deron, welcome to the asylum! When the BAR bug bites, the poison works fast. It's usually terminal, but not fatal...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deron K8OSU
...want to start building some kits to start off with. However, I was never really good at building them when I was a kid...what is a fairly straight-forward kit to build for someone who hasn't built one in years?


That Baby Bertha is a good kit, easy to work with. Another great first-time kit is the old Centuri Astro-1, which is now available once again through SEMROC, and has a balsa nose cone. BTW, around here, you'll find a lot of "warm-and-fuzzy" talk about balsa components. It's part of the sickness...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deron K8OSU
...after the model is painted, what type of clear top coat could I use that can be sprayed on?


Quote:
Originally Posted by barone
...For clear coating, most of us here prefer Future acrylic floor finish, but it's brush on unless you have an air brush...


If you have a Harbor Freight store nearby, you can get one of their cheap airbrush kits (lists around $10, often is on sale for $5). This is a China knock-off of the Badger 350, but seems to work fairly well. Use the Badger accessories (jars, lids, adapters, paint cups, etc...) instead of the jars and adapters that come with it. Set your pressure to about 35-40 PSI, and you can spray the Future straight from the bottle. Clean up with clear ammonia, followed by warm soap and water.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deron K8OSU
...I did see that some people recommended spray-on Kilz...


Quote:
Originally Posted by barone
...Spray Kilz is getting hard to find now that Wal-Mart isn't carrying it...


Spray Can Kilz is usable if you don't apply it too heavily. It doesn't de-gas completely if it's thick, and you wind up with trapped gas bubbles which never sand out. Again, from Harbor Freight, they have a medium-duty spray gun which I use to apply the "regular" Kilz-in-a-can, just thinned with mineral spirits. I think it sands better, and I never get trapped gas bubbles in the primer with it. In either case, let it dry for a few days before sanding.

The use of clear dope with talcum powder added is an alternative to sanding sealer. Being a lacquer, you can sand it down in a matter of a few hours as it dries much faster than the Kilz.

For all of these methods, let the solvent odors (VOCs) disappear completely before trying to mask and paint.

Quote:
Originally Posted by STRMan
...I also have started papering my fins instead. I use self adhesive paper (like full page sized AVERY mailing labels), cut them slightly oversize for the fins, apply to one side of the fin, trim to the fin with an X-acto knife, and then repeat the process for the other side of the fin. I then seal the edges with CA (super glue). Make sure you don't put the CA on the root edge of the fin...


I now do all of my balsa fins this way, too, and I find it eliminates a ton of work. This produces a pre-surfaced fin that only needs a coat of primer to be ready for paint. Try this method on your next kit, and I think you'll like it.

The best advice any of us can offer you is to build often, and fly often. The more you build, the better your skills will develop in construction. There are certainly tricks that we've learned, like how to attach fins straight, which make the flying part more satisfying. But nothing can take the place of just practicing the art and craft of construction.
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  #6  
Old 08-07-2008, 10:31 PM
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I'll be the dissenter here... I use, and have good luck with, the cheap sandable gray or red oxide primers sold by Wal-Mart under the ColorPlace name, and by Dollar General under the Miracal name. Both require more coats (and thus a bit more sanding) than Kilz, but they sand off well (making a fine powder) if you give them 8 to 24 hours to dry. Sometimes I apply two coats, spaced 15-45 minutes apart, if I have nasty spirals to fill or deep balsa grain. I don't use sanding sealer (can't buy it locally, and don't want to mail order it). Sometimes I do paper the fins of a rocket, and overall I like the results.

Let me quote you an old programmer's saying: Be prepared to throw one away, because you will anyway. In the case of rockets, a bad finish still flies just fine, and can always be sanded off and redone, so you don't really have to throw one away. The point is to practice. You will get better.
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  #7  
Old 08-09-2008, 08:51 AM
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Thanks for all of the replies! I really appreciate the advice and suggestions!!

Based on them, I picked up a Baby Bertha at my local hobby shop. They also had the Estes fin guide, too, and I got one of them, too, since I always had a hard time getting my fins straight! I remember reading in the archives that it didn't get the best reviews, but I think I can probably make it work for what I need.

I think that I will apply the sealer after I get the rocket built, which will hopefully be completed by tomorrow. I'd like, if possible, to get the first coat of sealer on this weekend. I expect papering the fins is something I may try later on. I didn't have a lot of success with it when I was younger, so I'm interested to see how using the sanding sealer turns out in comparison...

I ended up finding some Kilz primer at my local Meijer (it's like a Midwestern Wal-Mart Supercenter). It was about a dollar more than the cheap primer, so I figured I'd give it a shot. Also got some better sandpaper, too, while I was at it! They had tons of it, so if anyone has a Meijer nearby, it might be worth a look to see if they have any.

I still haven't decided what I'm going to do about painting it, since I hate the color scheme on the package, but I'd still like to do something nice looking. And, by the way, Craig, I actually do have a Harbor Freight about two miles from where I live, but, living in an apartment, I don't have a good garage or work area that I could set up an airbrush without making a gigantic mess! Does that mean I have a good excuse to buy a house now?!? I'm glad to know that there's a place I can get an airbrush set without breaking the bank. They were not cheap at the hobby store when I looked one time!

Oh, and this isn't exactly the first rocket I've built since I bought that launch kit. I built an Estes Metalizer, and it turned out really well. It flew nicely, and I used Testors model glue, per the instructions, to glue the plastic fin assembly to the tube, it weakened after the first flight. On the second flight, the ejection charge completely blew the fins off the tube, and they promptly fell to earth and smacked me on the head. My fiancee has a funny video of the launch, where you can barely hear me in the background cussing when it hit me. No harm done, and the nose cone, at least, popped off the top of the tube, so it didn't turn into a deadly missile. At home, though, the rocket repaired nicely, but this time with CA instead of model glue!!

I plan on hooking up with my local NAR section sometime soon. I signed up for their email list, but I think that things are a bit slow right now due to vacations and such. Hopefully, they'll pick up a bit in the fall, and I'll have at least some time to go after school starts back up for me in September.

Thanks again for all the suggestions, and I will be sure to post pictures!!
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  #8  
Old 08-09-2008, 12:15 PM
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As far as finishing is concerned it all is a matter of personal choice. You can do as little or as much in the way of finishing. I have only used rattle cans for painting and some brush on for details. Never used sanding sealer but do use Elmer's Fil n Finish or wood filler diluted with water to a tooth paste consistency and brushed on and hardly ever use a clear coat. I have some rockets with a finish as smooth as glass and others where you might see some wood grain it just depends on how much effort I want to expend. I never used Kilz but have used several different brands of primer all worked fine but just don't like the red. I guess what I am saying is read the other posts try the different methods and products and come up with something you like. There is no real right or wrong way just have fun welcome back
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  #9  
Old 08-09-2008, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K8OSU
.......I still haven't decided what I'm going to do about painting it, since I hate the color scheme on the package, but I'd still like to do something nice looking.

You might want to think about using the paint scheme for the older Big Bertha (not the new black color scheme).
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  #10  
Old 08-09-2008, 05:38 PM
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For some reason, around here, people like to paint their Baby Berthas in tri-color. red-white-blue (but more pastel), green-yellow-flourescent pink, but I haven't seen anything with an orange motif.

My Big Berthas are painted in the 80's style (yellow with black nose and a black fin), though if I build another one, it will be painted like Vern's original (now that I have some definitive close up photos of it!), red with pinup nose art, and, uh, let's just say an interesting nose cone. Maybe I'll do one like the one in my avatar, based on the '69 catalog photo.
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