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  #1  
Old 02-05-2009, 12:46 AM
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BEC BEC is offline
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Default Just how old is "too old"?

As I've posted elsewhere, I'm in the process of becoming a BAR after a very long hiatus from the hobby. One thing I've seen alluded to here but not clearly discussed is this: how old a motor is too old to ever consider using? I have a small quantity of Estes motors that date back to my original involvement in model rockets (when I was in Jr. High and High School). In looking at them just now it appears, if I can believe what looks like date codes to be that, that they were made in 1967 and 1968.....

I suspect that's too old . I also have a small quantity of mini engines from 1973.

I know (since I've already done it) that "Solar" igniters from that same time period work just fine.

But I'm a little less willing to try to use any of the motors - most of which are values that don't even exist any more (1/4A boosters, one 1/2A .8-0S, a few 1/4A upper stages).

Is there an NAR regulation, or a rule of thumb, or is it just caution so as to not want to have catastrophic failures....?

Just curious.
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Old 02-05-2009, 05:01 AM
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That are all useless, useless I tell ya! Especially B-14's. They are the most useless of all. Just send them to me. I'll... er... dispose of them, yeah, dispose of them for ya!

Seriously, how were they stored? If they were stored inside, in a temp controlled environment, there is no reason they might not be perfectly fine. On the other hand, if they were out in the garage, cycling between freezing winter temps and scorching summer heat, they are probably CATO's waiting to happen. Big booms on the launch pad.

If they are not flight worthy, keep them as collector's items. Don't toss them.
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  #3  
Old 02-05-2009, 07:09 AM
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One rule of thumb is, if they are worth more in an auction than they would cost to replace at the store, then they are TOO OLD to use and much better to collect

Also, the NAR guideline that you should reference is the current safety certification list that you can find here.

This is where you will find a list of currently NAR certified motors. If they are not on the list then the NAR does not allow their use. There is an exception, the "Old Motor Program" where you can launch motors that have lost certification. I tried finding a link to the details but came up empty...

As was mentioned, it really comes down to how they were stored. If they were kept dry and at reasonable tempuratures (say, 50 - 90 F), then you *should* be ok.


Keep us posted with results if you choose to use these as we would be most interested in how they work.

jim
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  #4  
Old 02-05-2009, 11:09 AM
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They have always been in living quarters, never in an outdoor storage shed or a garage.

I did try to find the answer on the NAR site before posting and saw the certs/decerts but all the publications that were applicable were not posted (too old, I expect) so I didn't get to read why a given motor was decerted.

STRman - no B14s, sorry. I remember them fondly, and they were a key part of a high school science fair project of mine that got me all the way to the New Mexico state competition in 1971 or 72 as I recall (in involved primitive life forms and a rocket powered by a cluster of three B14s..... )

So, Jim, where does one go to auction off a single 1/2A .8-2S (for example)? It, of course, cannot be directly replaced at all but one could get close (saw the "shorty motors" thread). I certainly can see that if there is someone actually crazy enough to collect these things I might be willing to facilitate such a collection.

But based on the responses the one B6-4 I have that's from the early 1970s will likely be flown soon, and after I build a new mini-engine rocket I'll likely use the -Ts I have that are in the little diamond-shaped paper packages.

As for the 1967/68 stuff....no so sure about that. They're all really small and might better be used to fill out someone's (not my) collection.
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Old 02-05-2009, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEC
They have always been in living quarters, never in an outdoor storage shed or a garage.

I did try to find the answer on the NAR site before posting and saw the certs/decerts but all the publications that were applicable were not posted (too old, I expect) so I didn't get to read why a given motor was decerted.

STRman - no B14s, sorry. I remember them fondly, and they were a key part of a high school science fair project of mine that got me all the way to the New Mexico state competition in 1971 or 72 as I recall (in involved primitive life forms and a rocket powered by a cluster of three B14s..... )

So, Jim, where does one go to auction off a single 1/2A .8-2S (for example)? It, of course, cannot be directly replaced at all but one could get close (saw the "shorty motors" thread). I certainly can see that if there is someone actually crazy enough to collect these things I might be willing to facilitate such a collection.

But based on the responses the one B6-4 I have that's from the early 1970s will likely be flown soon, and after I build a new mini-engine rocket I'll likely use the -Ts I have that are in the little diamond-shaped paper packages.

As for the 1967/68 stuff....no so sure about that. They're all really small and might better be used to fill out someone's (not my) collection.


A cluster of 3 B-14's! You're making me drool.

Well, you can't blame a guy for trying.
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  #6  
Old 02-05-2009, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEC
STRman - no B14s, sorry. I remember them fondly, and they were a key part of a high school science fair project of mine that got me all the way to the New Mexico state competition in 1971 or 72 as I recall (in involved primitive life forms and a rocket powered by a cluster of three B14s..... )


Did you ever attend any of the Southwest Model Rocketry Conferences in Portales or Albuquerque?

BTW I had a similar science fair project in '71 in Tucson AZ -- did your primitive life form have fur and a long tail?
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  #7  
Old 02-05-2009, 01:11 PM
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David,

No, I didn't. I was just a kid in Shiprock who liked to fly model airplanes and model rockets. Albuquerque is five hours' drive away, Portales is even further.

The primitive life forms were planaria - flatworms that if you cut 'em in half they regnereate the missing half. I traumatized some by launching them in that Astron Cobra derivative I made and seeing how those did relative to others that didn't make the flight.

I suppose some good came of all this model stuff - I've been at Boeing for 30 years now....
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  #8  
Old 02-05-2009, 02:37 PM
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I just launched a 1/2A 6-4 two weekends ago from 1970 that was EXACTLY 39 years old, to the day! and it flew great in a Semroc Rawhide!
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  #9  
Old 02-05-2009, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEC
As I've posted elsewhere, I'm in the process of becoming a BAR after a very long hiatus from the hobby. One thing I've seen alluded to here but not clearly discussed is this: how old a motor is too old to ever consider using? I have a small quantity of Estes motors that date back to my original involvement in model rockets (when I was in Jr. High and High School). In looking at them just now it appears, if I can believe what looks like date codes to be that, that they were made in 1967 and 1968.....

I suspect that's too old . I also have a small quantity of mini engines from 1973.

I know (since I've already done it) that "Solar" igniters from that same time period work just fine.

But I'm a little less willing to try to use any of the motors - most of which are values that don't even exist any more (1/4A boosters, one 1/2A .8-0S, a few 1/4A upper stages).

Is there an NAR regulation, or a rule of thumb, or is it just caution so as to not want to have catastrophic failures....?

Just curious.


For BP motors, I've yet to encounter anything that was "too old". Last summer at NARAM-50 I used 1970 vintage C6-7s in both D ELA and C Payload, and they performed fine. I'm still a bit POed that the wouldn't let me apply for the NAR old motor permission to use even older motors at the ORR launch on Saturday. I can't think of a more appropriate time to allow their use.
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  #10  
Old 02-05-2009, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Kaplow
'm still a bit POed that the wouldn't let me apply for the NAR old motor permission to use even older motors at the ORR launch on Saturday. I can't think of a more appropriate time to allow their use.


Were you give a good reason?
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