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#1
10-07-2012, 06:26 PM
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The difference in kits.......
I normally only buy and build Madcow rocket kits from Apogee. Every once in a while, I still like to buy an Estes kit when I find something interesting or get the chance to buy an OOP kit that's no longer around. I do a lot of searching on Ebay for my OOP kits. I'm not familiar with some of the kit manufacturers on the market. Would some of you that are familiar with other kits that are out there, please tell me about some of them.
One of the kits I'm curious about is "Launch Pad Kits". I'm also curious about rocket kits built by other manufacturers. Would everyone please be kind enough to tell me about some of those kits and how they compare to Madcow? Each of the Madcow kits have quality tubing, kevlar, and large nylon parachutes............How do the other manufacturers stand up to Madcow? I'm really interested in the quality of their kits and parts. Steve 
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 StevenHave you hugged your Dalmatian today? 
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#2
10-07-2012, 06:44 PM
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SEMROC is one of our favorite kit manufacturers, and Carl is one of our frequent posting members. His line-up includes many of the original "K" series Estes designs in "Retro-Repro" packages. All of his kits are top-notch quality; if you like balsa components, his turnings are better than the originals.
He also has this uncanny ability to ship before you actually hit the SEND button, so don't be shocked as to how fast the order arrives in your mailbox...
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Craig McGraw BARCLONE Rocketry -- http://barclone.rocketshoppe.com BARCLONE Blogsite -- http://barclone.wordpress.com BARCLONE Forum -- BARCLONE Forum BARs helping BARs SAM 0044 AMA 352635
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#3
10-07-2012, 08:05 PM
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Interesting question...
Madcow, AFAIC, only makes HPR kits... so comparing them to LPR/MPR kits manufacturers is really comparing apples to oranges... As I'm sure you've seen, the differences between the materials found in the typical Estes kit is markedly different from those Madcow uses, or most other HPR manufacturers, for that matter... LPR/MPR generally makes little use of fiberglass and G-10 and phenolic tubing and other such materials, simply because they're heavier, harder to work with, and COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY for the lower demands of LPR/MPR flights with their smaller motors... It's only when you get up into the demands of extremely high accelerations, high airspeeds (and subsequent massive drag forces) and other such concerns that it's beneficial to use these stronger, heavier materials. I don't fly HPR and so I haven't built any of Madcow's kits, but from what I understand they're pretty much standard HPR fare... As for LPR/MPR manufacturers, since these rockets fly with less powerful motors, meaning less acceleration forces, lower airspeeds, less drag, and lower altitudes, and most of time relying on simple motor deployment for recovery with no need for deployment or staging electronics in most cases... this means simpler, lighter materials. They've been proven to work over decades, and are plenty strong with only minor (optional) strengthening required, if desired... there IS some differences with respect to the overall quality of the materials used by various manufacturers, but usually they're relatively minor in nature... You mentioned "TLP" (The Launch Pad) kits... these are some of the more interesting, but at the same time, more "controversial" of the kit producers... Interesting because of the subject matter-- mid-power military missiles. Controversial because of the pre-conceptions and expectations some folks have about what a "Mid-power" kit is supposed to be, how it's supposed to be built, and what it's supposed to be made of. Most of his kits are based on the BT-60 and BT-80 tubes. These are standard thickness Estes-type tubes, NOT the "heavy walled" type HPR tubes found in some "MPR" kits... You cut your own fins from balsa stock in the kit, using templates provided for the shape, using a hobby knife and straightedge. There's been a lot of complaints about TLP kits having "exceptionally soft" balsa wood, to the point that some people feel driven to replace it from sheet balsa bought at their local hobby shop or Hobby Lobby. Personally I just paper the fins for extra strength, which also totally eliminates the sanding and sealing of the fins while adding a lot of strength, and call it good... SOME folks believe that if the kit isn't a massive, fiberglass reinforced anti-tank round capableof surviving the thrust of the biggest motor you could possibly manage to shove into it, that it's not a "REAL" MPR kit... BUT, with a little effort and care, and building it AS DESIGNED with only the slightest modifications, using the recommended motors, they will have a good flying rocket. The other issue some people have with the TLP kits is that in many cases, you have to construct a small "paper hat" from cardstock and glue it to the tip of the nosecone to make the specialized shape of the actual military missile's nosecone (which of course varies from missile to missle) due to the fact that the TLP kits are made with standard off-the-shelf plastic blow-molded nosecones... usually either the PNC-80BB (big Bertha style) or PNC-80K (V-2 style) nosecone. Some people want less of a "builders kit" that doesn't require as many construction steps and things, but this actually keeps the kit costs down by using off-the-shelf components rather than specialty shaped balsa cones, especially ones of this size! It's mostly a matter of what you expect in a MPR kit (that in fact MPR does mean everything from black powder D and E motors up to AP "G" motors.... and not JUST high-thrust F and G AP motors alone that don't require certs to fly... That, and how much work you want to put into a kit, versus just having everything pre-cut and ready to glue up, and presto you're done. IF that's the kind of kit you're looking for, you probably won't be happy with TLP. If you're looking for all-fiberglass and G-10 anti-tank rounds that can survive shoving the biggest, highest thrust motor you can possibly shove in there, or fall from a couple thousand feet due to failed recovery system without damage, then you probably will be unhappy with TLP... (or you'll gripe about how much modification you have to do to make it into such an anti-tank round). If, on the other hand, you want a cool flying model for not a ton of money, don't mind developing your builder's skills a little while putting in some work to get a great looking rocket, and want a rocket that flies well without costing you $50 or more on motors for each flight, then TLP is DEFINITELY worth getting into! As mentioned, SEMROC offers some REALLY great kits, with TOP OF THE LINE high quality parts and service. Semroc stuff is a real value, and they have some interesting kits and of course offer lots of parts for the custom builder... and their customer service is absolutely world-class... Centuri of course is Estes's old competitor from the 60's and 70's, before they merged in the early 80's. Centuri had some neat stuff back in the day, lots of stuff neater than Estes did, but you won't find it anywhere but on Ebay any more... mostly collectors stuff... Quest makes some neat kits... they're worth taking a look at. They're *roughly* on par with Estes as far as quality, (though I might edge Estes out ahead of them a bit in this regard). Quest is broadly comparable to Estes. Quest also sells rebranded Chinese motors as their own, and they have some interesting burn characteristics and some neat long burn motors that Estes simply doesn't offer, BUT, they DO have some drawbacks, and some differences you better be used to before you fly them in your prized rocket... Sunward has some neat kits, and building supplies. FLiskits, Pem-Tech, Squirrel Works, and probably a half-dozen others have some REALLY neat and innovative designs, and use pretty typical model rocket construction materials and techniques... Dr. Zooch makes some interesting kits... all BT-60 and below. Most of his kits are models of various early-space program vehicles, both American and Russian, from the early days of the space program up to the recent past (Space Shuttle) and into the future (as presently planned) with kits like the SLS, and EFT-1 Delta-IV Heavy Orion launcher... there's also some "fun kits" like his Mark II, and the Zooch Lifting Body SHuttle kit... There's a lot more, which I'm sure folks will mention... but comparing LPR kits to HPR kits is really comparing apples to oranges... Later and good luck! OL JR
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The X-87B Cruise Basselope-- THE Ultimate Weapon in the arsenal of Homeland Security and only $52 million per round!
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#4
10-08-2012, 02:23 AM
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Below is a list (including web site links) of all US and Canadian model rocket manufacturers. (There are European manufacturers as well, but I am not familiar with them--Leo, could you help here?) Of them, AeroTech Consumer Aerospace, Cesaroni Technology, Estes Industries, and Quest Aerospace produce model rocket motors (and Quest also sells re-branded Chinese-made motors).
Estes and Quest also make RTF (Ready-To-Fly) rockets as well as E2X (Estes) and Quick-Kits (Quest) rockets, which are ARTF (Almost-Ready-To-Fly). Semroc Astronautics produces reproductions of many classic Centuri, Estes, Flight Systems, and Rocket Development Corporation kits. Here is the list: Advanced Rocketry Group Ltd. www.argrockets.com Aerospace Speciality Products www.asp-rocketry.com AeroTech Consumer Aerospace www.aerotech-rocketry.com Apogee Components www.apogeerockets.com (also sells Chinese "Sky" brand kits, launch pads, and launch controllers) Cesaroni Technology www.pro38.com (makes reloadable model rocket motors and HPR motors) Cosmodrome Rocketry www.cosmodromerocketry.com Custom Rocket Company www.customrocketcompany.com Dr. Zooch Rockets http://drzooch.com Estes Industries www.estesrockets.com FlisKits, Inc. www.fliskits.com The Launch Pad www.the-launch-pad.com LOC Precision www.locprecision.com (they make smaller, model rocket kits as well as HPR kits) Odd'l Rockets www.oddlrockets.com Pratt Hobbies www.pratthobbies.com Qualified Competition Rockets www.cybertravelog.com/qcr Quasar One Custom Rockets www.quasaronerockets.com Quest Aerospace www.questaerospace.com Red River Rocketry www.redriverrocketry.com Semroc Astronautics www.semroc.com Squirrel Works www.squirrel-works.com Starlight Model Rockets www.starlightrocketry.com (went out of business fairly recently, kits still sold by vendors) Sunward Aerospace Group Limited www.sunward1.com True Modeler's Rocket Kits www.truemodeler.com I hope this information will be helpful.
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Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see: http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185 http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050 http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511 All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com. NAR #54895 SR Last edited by blackshire : 10-08-2012 at 02:25 AM. Reason: This ol' hoss done forgot somethin'.
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#6
10-08-2012, 05:05 AM
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JR,
Thanks for the information. I know it's a matter of apples and oranges with my Madcow kits and the Estes kits I started on. I wasn't actually trying to compare the two of them, I get the power and those differences. I was talking more about the other manufacturers. If you don't mind, I'm a little curious about something. How long have you been building and flying rockets? Is there any information I can dial into that will teach me things I'm finding it difficult to find in one place. I've noticed that everyone on the forum seems to speak in a language I'm unfamiliar with. I'm also a little slow to pick up on some of the abbreviations and terms everyone uses here. I've only been building for about a year. I got into it with some of my neighbors kids. There aren't any rocket clubs near where I live in Indianapolis, so I'm doing things on my own. I quickly grew bored with smaller rocket kits, ergo - I started building larger Madcow kits. I don't think I'll do anything like high power or getting certified. I'm content with mid power so far. I'm even putting mid power engines in my high power kits. I also enjoy the better quality of the kits. - I guess I get a lot of my building likes and dislikes from my joy of building radio controlled sailboats and intersts as a ham radio operator. I'd like to thank Blackshire for his inclusion of links to all the sites of rocket manufacturers. Steve 
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StevenHave you hugged your Dalmatian today?
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#7
10-08-2012, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
No, that is not all!!! Here are some more: Balsa Machining Service (also carries Edmonds Aerospace and Saturn Press) www.balsamachining.com Edmonds Aerospace edmondsaerospace.com Excelsior Rocketry/Roachwerks www.excelsiorrocketry.com New Way Space Models newwayspacemodels.com Pemberton Technologies www.pembertontechnologies.com Public Missiles, Ltd. www.publicmissiles.com Rocketarium www.rocketarium.com Sirius Rocketry www.siriusrocketry.com I am pretty sure there are even more... Bill
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It is well past time to Drill, Baby, Drill! If your June, July, August and September was like this, you might just hate summer too... Please unload your question before you ask it unless you have a concealed harry permit. : countdown begin cr dup . 1- ?dup 0= until cr ." Launch!" cr ; Give a man a rocket and he will fly for a day; teach him to build and he will spend the rest of his days sanding... Last edited by Bill : 10-08-2012 at 08:45 AM. Reason: this old hoss remembered something else
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#8
10-08-2012, 09:33 AM
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If you think there SHOULD be a difference in material strength/quality from a typical LPR kit to a MPR kit (as MOST of us do) then you will be sadly disappointed in the quality of kits from 'the launch pad'. They are nothing more than a LARGER LPR kit with materials no stronger than a typical Estes kit. They also don't seem to think decals as represented on kit photos need to be included in the overpriced kits either.
SEMROC is tops ! When they call a kit SLS or mid power, you can expect top-notch parts capable of small HPR engine thrust levels.
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When in doubt, WHACK the GAS and DITCH the brake !!! Yes, there is such a thing as NORMAL, if you have to ask what is "NORMAL" , you probably aren't ! Failure may not be an OPTION, but it is ALWAYS a POSSIBILITY. ALL systems are GO for MAYHEM, CHAOS, and HAVOC !
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#9
10-08-2012, 12:07 PM
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I noticed you didn't list U.S. Rockets (usrockets.com) on either list despite it being here since 1980.
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#10
10-08-2012, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Sorry, Jerry. I was reciting the companies who products I had seen at NARAM or at hobby shops lately. I did say, "I am pretty sure there are even more..." Bill
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It is well past time to Drill, Baby, Drill! If your June, July, August and September was like this, you might just hate summer too... Please unload your question before you ask it unless you have a concealed harry permit. : countdown begin cr dup . 1- ?dup 0= until cr ." Launch!" cr ; Give a man a rocket and he will fly for a day; teach him to build and he will spend the rest of his days sanding...
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