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  #41  
Old 07-07-2017, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Sams
I've see two: The shape as designed by Estes.

And the shape caused by young newbs incorrectly gluing the trailing edge to the tube in a sort of upside down fashion

Doug

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No no, they just got confused and thought they were building a Centuri Astro-1 !

Unless, you're describing something looking more like a fork
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  #42  
Old 07-07-2017, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbzep
On left a 2008 BNC-50K from Semroc which is very close if not identical to the profile of the early Estes nose cone, center PNC-50K, on right was the BMS version of BNC-50K in 2008, which is actually the balsa equivalent of the Alpha III nosecone. I threw it in the pic just to show what you'd end up with if you ordered it from BMS at the time.
<snip pic>

Those 3 cones have exactly the shapes I was describing in post 38.

The balsa cone has the identical shape of the orange, plastic Alpha III cone.

Doug

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  #43  
Old 07-07-2017, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbzep
I used to have photos on YORF showing the difference in the nosecones. No thanks to crappy Photobucket, they are not online any more.

So...here they are again.

On left a 2008 BNC-50K from Semroc which is very close if not identical to the profile of the early Estes nose cone, center PNC-50K, on right was the BMS version of BNC-50K in 2008, which is actually the balsa equivalent of the Alpha III nosecone. I threw it in the pic just to show what you'd end up with if you ordered it from BMS at the time.

There was a plastic cone shaped like the balsa one on the left at one time. I've seen them in old Alpha II kits. It is my understanding that they were in X-Ray kits at one time too.



Viewed separately, and maybe from afar, they are reasonably close. But seeing all three, I like the "fatter" two on the outside, with the top nod going to the one on the right. The one in the middle just doesn't look right. I suspect others (maybe a few?) would argue for the center cone.
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  #44  
Old 07-07-2017, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Royatl
The 2016 fin I won't quibble about *too* much, since leading and trailing edge sweeps and root chord are correct.


Yeah....not too far off...certainly not as far off as the catalog page/Semroc shape. I had started to write something to the effect that the current lasered ones were as far off as the catalog page and that I was going to take comparison pictures later and then I just decided to do the pictures and was actually a little surprised at how close it actually is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Royatl
The old balsa noses were always a bit dodgy due to wear and tear on the plunge grinder. The original plastic nose was a decent approximation. The newer nose is a proper mathematical ogive, but *not* the old shape.


Yes.....and that contrast is pretty obvious in tbzep's pictures (and reposted above by Lee).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Royatl
And yes, you're correct about the Alpha III nose. Chrome Quasar was just an Alpha III nose, chromed. As the fins were Alpha III fins, clipped and chromed (though the clipping was probably done at the mold and not post production).


I figured as much. I just don't have examples in hand as I do the others (III in two colors, IV, Phantom).

Of course the fin can has been used in a few other places as well - the RTF HiJinks and Athena of recent years come immediately to mind, as well as the Make It - Take It, though this latter while dimensionally similar seems to be made from a lower quality plastic. I'm sure there are others.

Lee - I have an example of the earlier blow-molded cone since John Boren gave me a partial red/black livery Alpha kit at NSL. I will post some pictures later including it and a genuine circa 1970 BNC-50K (that golden Alpha I mentioned earlier) alongside a Semroc version and the current blow-molded one. But not tonight. Gotta go bathe a couple of corgis.....
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Last edited by BEC : 07-08-2017 at 02:03 AM. Reason: once again straightening out attribution for prior post
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  #45  
Old 07-08-2017, 01:03 AM
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Thank you (and for posting the scan of your 1967 Alpha instructions!); I didn’t remember either of those part numbers. Since that is—I think, since it’s old enough that it mentions dope first, *then* spray paint—the first version of the Alpha’s instructions, that white/red paint scheme could have been the first “official” Alpha paint scheme. Yes, you can always make “a clone of that clone” in order to avoid losing your signed one (that would be especially important for a Bill Simon-signed original-type Mosquito clone!).

I’d built a couple of Athenas (the old metallized nose cone/Generic E2X fin unit 4FNC kit) which also utilized the motor mount “sleeve” tube, and it was perfectly sensible for them, particularly since the sleeve didn’t slide over the motor clip (which would require the builder to cut a long slot out of the inner wall of the sleeve). For a rocket like the Alpha, the sleeve is structural “overkill” and needlessly complicates the construction. A jigsaw or a band saw would be perfect for (carefully!) cutting the sleeves into centering rings.

I help a teacher in the isolated community of Eagle, Alaska, who incorporates model rocketry into her students’ STEM courses but has quite limited funds to do so (there are many other teachers in similar circumstances). Such an Alpha “no-frills basic bulk pack” would be ideal for such teachers, since balsa fin stock would be cheaper than die-cut or laser-cut fins (plus, the students would learn skills and hand-eye coordination by cutting out the fin patterns and the fins themselves, stack-sanding them, airfoiling them, and so forth), and:

It sounds like the Alpha II was Estes’ “production modernization test product.” Not being a product that they offered to the general public, any problems with it (which could have delayed distribution) would have affected only a relatively small subset of their customer base (and for outstanding orders, they could have substituted production “Alpha I” kits for the Alpha IIs until their production problems were fixed).
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  #46  
Old 07-08-2017, 01:24 AM
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Although the part shown was turned for my Super Alpha, this is my interpretation of what a "BNC-60K" should look like. In the picture is the plastic nose cone included with my Super Alpha. I think it's the same cone as the Der Red Max nose cone, and definitely an unacceptable cone for an Alpha.
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  #47  
Old 07-08-2017, 02:06 AM
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Nice job, Lee.

The first run of Super Alphas had a balsa nose cone that was much closer. But the body was too short for a true BT-60 upscale.

I had a BT-60 upscale of the first version of the Alpha with a 24mm motor mount in it with me at NSL, but it was one of the models that didn't get flown. It has a BNC-60K from eRockets/Semroc on it.
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  #48  
Old 07-08-2017, 08:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeeR
Although the part shown was turned for my Super Alpha, this is my interpretation of what a "BNC-60K" should look like. In the picture is the plastic nose cone included with my Super Alpha. I think it's the same cone as the Der Red Max nose cone, and definitely an unacceptable cone for an Alpha.

Yes, that's the PNC-60AH (Red Max, Citation Patriot, Omega, Mean Machine, Screamin Mimi, etc.).
Nice job turning the upscale 50K.
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  #49  
Old 07-08-2017, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEC
Nice job, Lee.

The first run of Super Alphas had a balsa nose cone that was much closer. But the body was too short for a true BT-60 upscale.

I had a BT-60 upscale of the first version of the Alpha with a 24mm motor mount in it with me at NSL, but it was one of the models that didn't get flown. It has a BNC-60K from eRockets/Semroc on it.


Interesting that the body tube was too short, if the nose cone was close to accurate. The body tube in mine was too short, but I figured it was done when they used the long plastic cone, to keep overall length close to scale.

I had my Super Alpha at NSL also, but no flight. I took WAY too many rockets and motors, but I'm always over-optimistic about what I'll get prepped and flown.
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  #50  
Old 07-26-2017, 01:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEC
The first run of Super Alphas had a balsa nose cone that was much closer. But the body was too short for a true BT-60 upscale.



yes, just one inch too short



("that's what *she* said..." sorry, couldn't help it!)
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