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  #1  
Old 05-28-2005, 06:08 PM
ShieldWolf's Avatar
ShieldWolf ShieldWolf is offline
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Exclamation Cloning How To (long)

There are many methods to cloning the classics. One way is to decide what model you wish to clone, and proceed to gather the parts and information needed to reproduce it. This method is great if you have a specific model in mind.

Another method is when you have a specific part, such as a nose cone, and decide to clone a model that used that part. Maybe you bought a Designers Special and want to know what to do with that really odd looking nose cone, or maybe all that you recovered of that last rocket that got stuck in the "Rocket-Eating Tree" was the nose cone, or maybe you picked up one of the nose cone assortments at the local hobby shop. This is the method I'm detailing here.

I recently picked up a pack of Estes NC-55 nose cones. I was hoping for an assortment, but this pack contained 4 of the same. Oh well, I'll work with these.

For those of you who are not aware of it, the nose cones in these packs aren't identified, other than by what body tube they'll fit. In this case BT-55. To identify the cones, I downloaded the Estes Nose Cone Pictures located at http://www.rocketshoppe.com/info/Nose_Cones.pdf Make sure that you save a copy of this so you won't have to download it again. Comparing my nose cone with the pictures convinced me that I had 4 PNC-55AC's.

Now that I knew what nose cones I had, I wanted to find out what models used those cones, so I downloaded the Estes Nose Cone Reference List located at http://www.rocketshoppe.com/info/Es...eference_sm.pdf Again, save a copy. Browsing the list showed that the PNC-55AC's had been used on several models, including the #1247 Cherokee D, the #1270 Nike X, the #1360 Tartar, the #1972 Bullpup 12D, and a few others. The balsa version of this cone, the BNC-55AC, was also used on the K-47 Cherokee D and the K-26 and #1226 Arcas. The plastic nose cone should work fine in place of the balsa nose cone, but you'll want to do a swing test to make sure before your first launch.

Now that I have a list of kits that used this cone, it's time to see what plans are available to allow me to recreate, or clone, some of these. There are several sources for these plans, but one of my favorites is JimZ Rocket Plans at http://www.dars.org/jimz/rp00.htm This may take a while to load if this is your first time here, or you are on a slow connection. Be patient, it's worth it. Scroll to the bottom of the page and click on the Estes emblem. You'll be taken to a page of Estes Industries Rocket Kit Plans. These are arranged by model number in a tabular layout.

The Cherokee D is a classic kit that I know I want to clone, so I'll scroll down the list until I find #1247, which is the plastic nose cone version. With most models, you will have the choice of downloading each page of the instructions individually. With some, you will be given the choice of downloading a PDF. If you're just browsing, and aren't positive that you want to download the plans for a particular model, the non PDF pages open quicker and let you see a picture of the model. If you do want the plans, I prefer saving the PDF's to my hard drive, rather than trying to view them online.

In this case, I don't see a PDF for the Cherokee D, so I will go to the standard plans page here http://www.dars.org/jimz/k-47.htm In this case, plans for both versions are on the same page. This is nice, as it allows us to compare the original and the newer style instructions. Each of these pages is a thumbnail that links to a larger tiff image. Unless I just want to view one page, I like to right click on an image and "save as". When given the choice of where to save, I like to create a new folder to save to, with the name of the model, Cherokee D in this case. With the Cherokee D, there is a fin pattern, and 2 different decal sheets for those of you who wish to print your own. With some models thier will also be a picture of a ruler, a compass and calipers. This is a link to body tube measurements and will save you from the next step.

Once I downloaded the plans, I checked the parts list to find out that the body tube was a BT-55 part #30382. Well, I already knew it was a BT-55, because that's what my nose cones fit. What I really need to know is the length of that body tube. This is where the list located here http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/rockets/body_tubes.html comes in handy. Except that in this case, our body tube is not listed. This may mean that it uses a full length 18" body tube, or it just may mean that it hasn't been added to the list. (Before moving on, scroll to the bottom of the page and check to see what thickness of balsa fin stock you'll need. In the case of the Cherokee D it's BF-47, which should be 1/8" thick.)

There are a couple of ways to verify the body tube length. Checking Ye Olde Rocket Plans here http://www.oldrocketplans.com/estes.htm is a good start, although it doesn't turn up a listing for the Cherokee D. Ye Olde Rocket Shoppe BAR & Cloning Links here http://www.rocketshoppe.com/bar_links.htm provides a list of helpful links that may provide the information we need. Another great source of information is The Rocketry Forum located at http://www.rocketryforum.com/ Don't hop in and ask a question without doing a search first. In this case a search for "Estes Cherokee-D length" turned up one thread which gave us a length of 16.35" for the balsa nose cone version and 18" for the plastic nose cone version.

If we hadn't found an answer after doing a search, then we would have posted a new thread in the appropriate section, either Low-Powered Rocketry or Scratch Built. Use a clear title, such as "Need Cherokee D tube length". Too general of a title, such as "Question", or "Need Length" or "Cherokee D" may or may not receive an anwer.

Ye Olde Rocketry Forum is, of course, also a good place to seek answers, especially for the person wanting to clone an old classic, or something from one of the lesser known companies.

Randal
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Last edited by ShieldWolf : 05-29-2005 at 11:07 AM.
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  #2  
Old 05-29-2005, 10:32 AM
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ScaleNut ScaleNut is offline
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.. Very informative tutoral tho you gotta admit, kinda limited tword just old Estes kit cloning..is there a source of centuri cones or other brands available also in a list or pics of them for reference? I personally of like the centuri and other stuff just as well.

thanks !
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  #3  
Old 05-29-2005, 10:59 AM
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ShieldWolf ShieldWolf is offline
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Thumbs up Thanks for the kind words

Estes was all I knew as a kid, so that's what I clone now. Not that I don't build Quest, and Custom and Fliskits and all of the other wonderful kits out there. It's just that Estes made the rockets of my youth.

I'll add links to info on the other brands, Centuri, Canaroc, etc. as I find them, but please feel free to chime in with your favorite resources.

ShieldWolf

Here's one that looks promising for those looking to clone Centuri rockets. There's even a parts substitution page. http://members.cox.net/retrojayrocket/
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Last edited by ShieldWolf : 05-29-2005 at 11:20 AM.
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  #4  
Old 05-29-2005, 01:26 PM
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Bob H Bob H is offline
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Jim Z's site has a lot of old Centuri plans also.

http://www.dars.org/jimz/centuri.htm

Centuri size tubes, nose cones, rings etc, can be purchased from Semroc. I got the parts to clone an SST Shuttle and I thought the quality of the parts was excellent.

http://www.semroc.com/Store/scripts/WebCatalog.asp
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  #5  
Old 05-29-2005, 02:28 PM
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ScaleNut ScaleNut is offline
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thanks for the centuri link ! and the Semroc tube source
Now I'm just curious,I noticed that alot of the Semroc kits look "very" simullar to many Centuri designs .. is there a " right to copy" connection there?..I'm sure there must be

thanks again
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  #6  
Old 05-29-2005, 04:18 PM
A Fish Named Wallyum A Fish Named Wallyum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaleNut
thanks for the centuri link ! and the Semroc tube source
Now I'm just curious,I noticed that alot of the Semroc kits look "very" simullar to many Centuri designs .. is there a " right to copy" connection there?..I'm sure there must be

thanks again


Ask Carl. He pops up here from time to time. I'd try to explain it, but I've been known to screw up stories on occasion. Carl, are you out there?
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  #7  
Old 05-29-2005, 05:52 PM
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Bob H Bob H is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaleNut
thanks for the centuri link ! and the Semroc tube source
Now I'm just curious,I noticed that alot of the Semroc kits look "very" simullar to many Centuri designs .. is there a " right to copy" connection there?..I'm sure there must be

thanks again


I'm sure Carl will answer your question about that.

The Laser X I got from Semroc is just like the Centuri one, even the instructions are almost the same .
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  #8  
Old 05-30-2005, 09:40 PM
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gpoehlein gpoehlein is offline
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Actually, you missed a resource for parts - the 1974 Custom Parts Catalog, which can be downloaded from Jimz site here:

http://www.dars.org/jimz/estp741.htm

I printed out a copy and use it for reference all the time. For example, looking in the Spare Parts Catalog under BT-55 body tubes, I found that the #30382 body tube was indeed 18". The catalog lists everything by its common name (such as BT-50H) and it's catalog number. It also lists that the part sold for back in '74, so you can whimper over the pitifully cheap prices these things sold for back then!

Greg
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  #9  
Old 05-30-2005, 10:09 PM
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CPMcGraw CPMcGraw is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScaleNut
thanks for the centuri link ! and the Semroc tube source
Now I'm just curious,I noticed that alot of the Semroc kits look "very" simullar to many Centuri designs .. is there a " right to copy" connection there?..I'm sure there must be

thanks again


Quote:
Originally Posted by gpoehlein
Actually, you missed a resource for parts - the 1974 Custom Parts Catalog, which can be downloaded from Jimz site here:

http://www.dars.org/jimz/estp741.htm


Another point of reference is the collection of Centuri and Estes catalogs at NINFINGER. You can compare the original Centuri part descriptions to the ones Carl offers at SEMROC. Carl offers far more parts today than Centuri offered at the peak of their lifetime.

It seems there were more than a few design houses that used the Centuri dimensions instead of the Estes dimensions.

Craig...
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  #10  
Old 05-30-2005, 11:58 PM
Ltvscout Ltvscout is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShieldWolf
There are many methods to cloning the classics. One way is to decide what model you wish to clone, and proceed to gather the parts and information needed to reproduce it. This method is great if you have a specific model in mind.

Excellent post, Randal! Thanks for taking the time in putting this info together for the "new" BAR.
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