$114.39 so far @ 10:45PM ..... I guess for the serious collector someone may pay triple that or more? $114.39 can buy a LOT of Semroc parts or kits though.

It is a very interesting and rare kit. If it popped up on the Semroc site as a Retro-Repro kit I'd buy it, and probably some other stuff to help fill up the shipping carton

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Steve Naquin
TRA# 677 L2
NAR# 85518 L2
SAM# 0052

🚀 In Construction: Der Blue Maxx/Minie-Magg 5.5” & Vander-Burn MDRM Clone w/Stickershock23 Custom Decals
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🚀 Stay Tuned For Fall 2021 Launch Dates

Heh, well, it looks like I was a tad low on my estimate of the final selling price.

Mark Mayfield dropped a WHOPPING $614 on this puppy! Zowie!

I had tried for the Fire Fly this guy was selling since it was my first two-stage kit, but it sold for about $100 more than I'm willing to pay for one.

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Scott D. Hansen
Ye Olde Rocket Shoppe - Your One Stop BAR Shoppe!
Ye Olde Rocket Plans - OOP Rocket Plans From 38 Companies!
Ye Olde Rocket Forum
WOOSH NAR Section #558

That ebay sales price is Un-Freekin'-Believable !
I have seen several Enerjet and Mini-Max Centuri kits go for less than that.
All of the 1/45 scale Little Joe II's I saw sold last year went for a ton less than that, and that one is NOT easily cloned.
For that price, one could clone it about 45 times !
Yeah I know it is rare, but the phrase "fool and their money are often parted" comes to mind. The ONLY difference between that and a clone with BETTER parts from Semroc is the original package, which in actual value is WORTHLESS.
To me, original classics or new kits are good for one thing only....BUILDING AND FLYING !
The classics I buy, I BUILD. I plan to start my original ENERJET Nike Smoke kit soon.

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When in doubt, WHACK the GAS and DITCH the brake !!!

Yes, there is such a thing as NORMAL, if you have to ask what is "NORMAL" , you probably aren't !
Failure may not be an OPTION, but it is ALWAYS a POSSIBILITY.
ALL systems are GO for MAYHEM, CHAOS, TURMOIL, FIASCOS, and HAVOC !

OK, as the "fool" who parted with his money, let me answer this as nicely as I can. The cloning of classic kits—and the reissuing of them in upscaled versions— are among the best trends out there. I'm building a Semroc Hustler right now (you should have seen Chas Russell's version at NARAM, beautiful.)

But there are certain original kits, like the Centuri Defender, that are so rare that they don't often come up for auction. Combine that with the fact that you had two bidders who were determined to have the kit and you get an extraordinary price. It's that simple. I don't think the $614 I paid for the Defender is the fair market value of that kit. I think Scott Hansen's prediction that it would go for $300 to $400 is much closer to the real value. But it will be worth what I paid, and much more, eventually. Nevertheless, I collect classic kits because I love model rocketry, and not for investments. One reason I bought the Defender is because we're doing a "Classic Clusters" article in the second issue of LAUNCH. But I also bought it because I had one as a kid and I wanted the original again. If Semroc reissues it, you can bet I'll buy one and fly it.

You mentioned Enerjet kits and the Centuri Little Joe II. I have some of those kits and I certainly know their value. In fact I had three Little Joe II kits (1/45th scale) up until a few weeks ago: I built one for the cover of LAUNCH. That left me with two in the box mint kits: I decided to give one as a gift to Lee Piester during NARAM because—surprisingly enough—he didn't have one. I'm not one of those collectors who runs and puts everything away in a box and forgets about them. I love this stuff--and our office at LAUNCH is a virtual museum of kits—and you'll be happy to know that some of them are built and flown regularly.

Finally, to say that you could build 45 clones of the Defender for the price paid is almost like saying to art collectors: Don't buy that Van Gogh because I know a good artist who can clone it a zillion times for the price you're going to pay. There is only one original. (Van Gogh, by the way, never sold a single painting in his lifetime. He couldn't even give them away. They were worthless. Now they go for up to $100 million. I think I'm heading over to Provence to see if I can find one...

Mark

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Mark Mayfield
NAR #14464
launchmagonline.com

Hey, a thing is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. Since Mark really wanted that Defender kit, I'm glad he won it. As Mark alluded to, paintings that are incredibly valuable today actually have no intrinsic value (or just the cost of the canvas, paint, and labor involved in painting them). Their value comes from the fact that people are willing to pay more than their intrinsic value for them.

The same goes for antique furniture, cars, books, model rocket kits, or anything else.

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John Thro, NAR #84553 SR
I was too old when I started! Now I'll *never* become a BAR!

That is correct. The Defender, in the condition yours is in and in that older packaging, is EXTREMELY rare. As a matter of fact, I can honestly say this is the first one I've seen on eBay in this packaging since I started using eBay in '98. (Of course that doesn't mean I missed one along the way, heh.)

We couldn't believe it when Lee was at NARCON and told us he didn't have an LJ II in his collection. I'm sure he's very grateful for the kits/built rockets he's gotten since then from rocketeers, and for the low number Semroc kits that Carl has given him.

Cool! So does that mean you'll give private tours of your "museum" when any of us are in NY?

You're right. The value is in the eye of the beholder. Obviously, the price would not have gotten so high if the others you were bidding against didn't feel it was worth that much as well. Me, I'm a cheapskate. I know that certain old kits that I want will command a high price. But, I'll stick to my guns till I find a "deal". I wanted that Fire Fly that hcmbanjo was selling since it was my first two-stager around 1971. But, I'm not prepared to pay $100+ for one. I'm also looking for a Payloader II in the old orange/black or earlier packaging since that was my first rocket. There again, I'll wait for a deal. My original Payloader II had a balsa nose cone so it was quite an early version. Every one that I've seen go up for sale has had the plastic cone.

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Scott D. Hansen
Ye Olde Rocket Shoppe - Your One Stop BAR Shoppe!
Ye Olde Rocket Plans - OOP Rocket Plans From 38 Companies!
Ye Olde Rocket Forum
WOOSH NAR Section #558

This thread reminds me so much of the debate that's raging in the *real* vintage airplane world: Do you "restore" a vintage airplane (like a P-38 Lightning, for example), or do you build a "replica" using modern technologies?

The argument for "restoration" is that there is not (and can't be) anything like the original item; making it flyable again, and FLYING it again, *is the point*. Making a "replica" is blasphemy, since it can never BE an original...it can only be a copy, and we're into "some artist copying a Van Gogh" territory.

The argument for "replication", in a way, agrees with the "restorers"...the originals are so precious, and so few, that we should not be trying to restore and fly the originals...they're too valuable. Let's instead make something that looks like, sounds like, and flys like the originals, so we can safely tuck the originals into museums for future generations to look at, and not crash them, rain on them, get fingerprints on them...while flying the modern "replicas" at airshows for all to enjoy "viscerally".

As an avid collector, builder, and flyer of model rockets, the parallels are striking. I have hundreds of original rockets, and dozens of clones of them (hey, the whole cloning thing hasn't been around long enough for me to BUY hundreds of them yet!). Every time I rip open a Centuri SuperKit, I'm "flying an original" that I may or may not get back...so I'm lessening the chance that future rocketeers will have a chance to see how well an ESS Raven looks or flys, but will have to settle for pictures on the Ninfinger website. BUT, if a clone exists (like, say, Semroc's Mars Lander), I can certainly build something that closely RESEMBLES the Estes Mars Lander that I have in the box in a closet, and if I crash it...I can buy and build another Semroc Mars Lander...at least until Carl doesn't make them any more (and just imagine...our kids might be having this same debate about the value of an original "Semroc Mars Lander" -- "Hey, you have one of the sub-20 numbered kits from NARCON 2006? Those are worth bucks!"). But regardless of whether you think Carl's version is better or worse than the original Estes ML...it is a *different* kit, and not the *original*. You're flying a VERY talented artist's copy of a Van Gogh.

Which side of the argument do I come down on? Well...here's how I feel about it: I didn't buy my rockets to sit in their packages. I've just led a really busy life, with lots of interests, lots of overtime at work, and lots of family interaction. As a result, I tend to buy my rockets faster than I can build them. The differential between my buy rate and build rate has ended up with a lots of kits on the shelves awaiting my time. Along the way, somehow, many of these kits became "worth something" to my fellow rocketeers. Some of the kits I wanted to buy to fill out my collection of (eventually built!) rockets got more and more expensive for me to obtain.

I think anyone should do what brings them happiness. Take a look around the world these days, and I think you'll agree that happiness is in short supply. So buy 'em, build 'em, and fly 'em, or buy 'em and conserve 'em...I don't think that anyone's a "fool" for doing what they love to do.

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Dean Fox
NAR #53946SR

---- "Wherever you go, there you are"

Dean, I like and understand your feelings on "collectables".

My problem with and it really bothers me, guys, is with MY kits.

I've made a few limited run kits notably my Little Joe II, Soyuz TM and lately my LTV Scout kits.

There were some fantastic build of them but sadly only a very very few.

Unfortunately I think most, maybe over 90%, of them are being "collected".

That is not why I made those kits.

Please build and fly them.

Honestly if you open them no "magic' will leak out!

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"I'm a sandman. I've never killed anyone. I terminate runners when their time is up." Logan from "Logan's Run"

http://sandmandecals.com/

...that MY Roachwerks LTV Scout is in my build queue, right behind another bird.

(and if you'd share the parts list for that upscale Constellation with me, THAT ONE might even edge out my Scout...the Connie was my SECOND rocket (right after my Alpha, bought it in the same order from Penrose)...and I'd LOVE to resurrect it in larger scale. I just wasn't around here when you sold 'em!)

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Dean Fox
NAR #53946SR

---- "Wherever you go, there you are"

The Constellation is easy.

I just multiplied all the original dimensions by 138%.

The Clear payload bay comes from the Super Nova Payloader kit.

The Fin pods well...I did cast them out of resin.

Phred at Excelcior has the BT-56 upscale of the D-13 decal sheet. It's one full page of decals!

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"I'm a sandman. I've never killed anyone. I terminate runners when their time is up." Logan from "Logan's Run"

http://sandmandecals.com/