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  #1  
Old 01-28-2012, 06:34 PM
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Default “Challenger, go at throttle up.”

Nation Geographic has been airing behind the scene footage of the Challenger Astronauts in flight training and preparations.

I did a post here and on TRF about the final report of the 51L disaster. I quick recap:

Three things doomed Challenger on January 28, 1986:

1) Launch was forced to due the previous day's scrub where a lever that was used to secure the orbiter's hatch wouldn't release (financial pressure to get the flight done).

2) The SRB's were being used out of their design range (too cold)

and the reason why Challenger never reached orbit:

3) Winds at 35,000 feet were at 150 mph, a category 4 hurricane! The weather balloons launched didn't reach 'Q-max' altitude until they were 40 miles down range from the launch site. It was the violent winds that shook lose the 'slag' material that had plug the burn through just 2.5 secs after lift-off. If it hadn't been for these winds freeing the slag, Challenger would have reached orbit.

Here are links the the NatGeo shows you can view on-line via your computer so there is ABSOLUTELY no excuse for us all to remain ignorant on this tragedy:

http://tinyurl.com/7efeo7r

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKFr...feature=related (you can follow the links for parts 2,3, and 4).

Space will NEVER be easy. Its a harsh and unforgiving environment. Why we forget this I will never understand.

J
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  #2  
Old 01-28-2012, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Cohetero-negro

Space will NEVER be easy. Its a harsh and unforgiving environment. Why we forget this I will never understand.
J

An event I'll never forget.
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Old 01-28-2012, 11:10 PM
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Held our annual balloon release and commemorative launch (for the 24th year) this morn at 11:38.

Will never forget that day nor the shock I felt when I got home from work that eve back in '86 and actually the saw the launch footage with my own eyes (no TVs at work back in those days, so all that was known by as at work was that "Challenger had blown up during launch").

That stack just coming apart during ascent was just too chilling and shocking to absorb all at once. I cried that day and still shed a bit of a tear just about every year as I remember back on that day.....and also Gus and his crew 19 years before that and now Rick and the crew of Columbia.

Hereos, all.


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Old 01-29-2012, 12:12 AM
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I was a freshman in high school and skipped school that day to get some field work done in preparation for fertilizing, applying herbicide, and planting cotton a month or two later...

It was a gorgeous day... sunny and just a bit cool... but quite a bit warmer than the below freezing nights we'd had a day or two earlier (the tail end of the same front that froze everything up at the Cape so thoroughly the morning of the launch). Dad was working nights at the nuke plant, had gotten home about 7:30 and grabbed a few hours sleep, and gotten up to get some lunch at Grandma's. He drove down to the end of the field by the highway and I stopped on the next round, parked the tractor and shut it down, and jumped in the truck to go eat lunch and warm up a bit. He told me "the shuttle blew up" and, I figured "oh, he saw the booster's come off it and THOUGHT it blew up... (the SRB sep motors make a pretty big plume around the vehicle when they went off, and then the boosters fall away, so he probably mistook this for "it blowing up". Got to Grandma's house and sure enough, it was true... had just happened about 15 minutes or so before... I popped in a tape into the new fangled toploading VCR I'd bought the previous summer and hit record on slowest speed, and watched the coverage through lunch... VERY sad... still have the tape somewhere in the closet...

I've read that before about the windshear busting the slag loose, but the point is, the SLAG was never meant to seal the thing off... the O-rings WERE. On previous flights (including Senator Jake Garn's flight the previous fall, IIRC) the SRB's returned with damaged joints from O-ring blowby because they didn't seat properly... in some cases the damage was pretty severe. NASA and Thiokol KNEW it was a problem, and were slowly working fixes through the pipeline to be implemented later on... but the decision was to push ahead anyway. Same thing with Columbia-- they'd had orbiters come back with holes burned through the belly where tiles got smacked off or split or trenches dug through them by falling foam and debris, (thankfully in non-critical areas) and well understood that falling foam could potentially cause a disaster, but they kept flying anyway... "minimal risk"... basically they gambled nothing would happen, and LOST. That's what it comes down to, anyway.

Had Challenger's O-rings seated properly, the windshear alone wouldn't have caused her loss. In point of fact, Challenger was doomed the instant the SRB's lit and the O-ring went "POOF" as black smoke out of the field joint. The fact that "maybe" she'd have held together had there been no (or less severe) windshear is ultimately irrelevant... even if Challenger HAD survived it's flight, it's almost a certainty that another orbiter would have been lost, or Challenger on another mission-- it was a symptom of how NASA was operating at the time. It was the same with Columbia...

The lesson to learn is, "no harm, no foul" is not a sound basis for a safety program...

FWIW, IMHO... OL JR
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Old 01-29-2012, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luke strawwalker
I was a freshman in high school and skipped school that day to get some field work done in preparation for fertilizing, applying herbicide, and planting cotton a month or two later...

It was a gorgeous day... sunny and just a bit cool... but quite a bit warmer than the below freezing nights we'd had a day or two earlier (the tail end of the same front that froze everything up at the Cape so thoroughly the morning of the launch). Dad was working nights at the nuke plant, had gotten home about 7:30 and grabbed a few hours sleep, and gotten up to get some lunch at Grandma's. He drove down to the end of the field by the highway and I stopped on the next round, parked the tractor and shut it down, and jumped in the truck to go eat lunch and warm up a bit. He told me "the shuttle blew up" and, I figured "oh, he saw the booster's come off it and THOUGHT it blew up... (the SRB sep motors make a pretty big plume around the vehicle when they went off, and then the boosters fall away, so he probably mistook this for "it blowing up". Got to Grandma's house and sure enough, it was true... had just happened about 15 minutes or so before... I popped in a tape into the new fangled toploading VCR I'd bought the previous summer and hit record on slowest speed, and watched the coverage through lunch... VERY sad... still have the tape somewhere in the closet...

I've read that before about the windshear busting the slag loose, but the point is, the SLAG was never meant to seal the thing off... the O-rings WERE. On previous flights (including Senator Jake Garn's flight the previous fall, IIRC) the SRB's returned with damaged joints from O-ring blowby because they didn't seat properly... in some cases the damage was pretty severe. NASA and Thiokol KNEW it was a problem, and were slowly working fixes through the pipeline to be implemented later on... but the decision was to push ahead anyway. Same thing with Columbia-- they'd had orbiters come back with holes burned through the belly where tiles got smacked off or split or trenches dug through them by falling foam and debris, (thankfully in non-critical areas) and well understood that falling foam could potentially cause a disaster, but they kept flying anyway... "minimal risk"... basically they gambled nothing would happen, and LOST. That's what it comes down to, anyway.

Had Challenger's O-rings seated properly, the windshear alone wouldn't have caused her loss. In point of fact, Challenger was doomed the instant the SRB's lit and the O-ring went "POOF" as black smoke out of the field joint. The fact that "maybe" she'd have held together had there been no (or less severe) windshear is ultimately irrelevant... even if Challenger HAD survived it's flight, it's almost a certainty that another orbiter would have been lost, or Challenger on another mission-- it was a symptom of how NASA was operating at the time. It was the same with Columbia...

The lesson to learn is, "no harm, no foul" is not a sound basis for a safety program...

FWIW, IMHO... OL JR


True again JR. I have met you in person, and you THINK! Too bad far more Americans aren't like you!

Challenger launching in cold weather and the rules it violated remind me about an incident I was part of when I was a crew chief on C-141's out at Norton AFB in CA years ago.

We were a MAC (Military Airlift Command) base, with C-5's and C-141's. It wasn't as glamorous as B-1's at a SAC base, or F-15/16's at TAC, but it was jets... BIG JETS!

Anyway, we were conducting a 'Purple Penny' exercise that simulates the opening round of World War III. Oh, back then we would joke that if WWIII did happen, after we launched all of our airplanes, we would get a coke and head to the middle of the runway. Soviet missiles were woefully inaccurate so we figured they would either fall short or over shoot us by 15 - 20 miles, enough to survive the initial blast I digress...

We were doing the Purple Penny and I had signed off on my 141's flight card that it lacked all the safety features needed for a safe trip over to Hickam AFB in HI. After my 12 hour shift was over, I headed back to the barracks and went to sleep...

... boom boom boom at my front door and here is this staff sergeant sent over, gets me out of bed, drives me back to the flight line, and has me undo me red X's so the plane could take off missing essential safety equipment... yes the plane made it, but what if? What if something happened, the plane had to ditch somewhere between CA and HI and crew members died... that would be on my soul.

Not to play Monday morning quarterback, as my stint in the AF was in the mid 80's before Challenger, but I would NEVER had allowed Challenged to fly based on the recommendation from Thiokol. That is ALL it would take for me. I realize others don't mind rolling dice with other people's lives, but I CERTAINLY don't!

I don't like managers, never have and never will! Managers are one of the major road blocks and sources of screw ups in an organization! The NASA managers and the Thiokol managers that saw G-32 -> G-33 raises, and billion dollar contracts are why we lost Challenger and her crew. Managers ... I can't say what I really want to say about them here...

J

Last edited by Cohetero-negro : 01-29-2012 at 02:02 PM.
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Old 01-29-2012, 03:59 PM
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I was a sophomore in high school when the Challenger incident ocurred. Saw it live on TV. Still gives me cills everytime I see it after all these years. It was a defining moment just like the JFK assasaination was for the 60's generation.
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Old 01-29-2012, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
I was a sophomore in high school when the Challenger incident ocurred. Saw it live on TV. Still gives me cills everytime I see it after all these years. It was a defining moment just like the JFK assasaination was for the 60's generation.


JFK assassination... that was the day we lost the Republic in my honest opinion.

Lots of issues there...

How did Oswald know to get a job in that building weeks before?

Why was the motorcade changed at the last moment to drive by that building?

Why does Kennedy's head violently thrust backwards towards the trunk as part of his brain casing falls into the hood of the trunk and you see Jackie reaching back to retrieve it; indicating that the 'kill shot' came from the right and forward and not from the book repository building... some say the second gunman was hidden at street level in a storm drain in the direction of the grassy knoll. Oswald was the patsy, the fall guy.

Yet I am supposed to believe in my fellow citizens ability to reason ... I just can't I honestly just can't anymore, I'm sorry for us all...

J
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Old 01-30-2012, 12:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cohetero-negro
True again JR. I have met you in person, and you THINK! Too bad far more Americans aren't like you!

Challenger launching in cold weather and the rules it violated remind me about an incident I was part of when I was a crew chief on C-141's out at Norton AFB in CA years ago.

We were a MAC (Military Airlift Command) base, with C-5's and C-141's. It wasn't as glamorous as B-1's at a SAC base, or F-15/16's at TAC, but it was jets... BIG JETS!

Anyway, we were conducting a 'Purple Penny' exercise that simulates the opening round of World War III. Oh, back then we would joke that if WWIII did happen, after we launched all of our airplanes, we would get a coke and head to the middle of the runway. Soviet missiles were woefully inaccurate so we figured they would either fall short or over shoot us by 15 - 20 miles, enough to survive the initial blast I digress...

We were doing the Purple Penny and I had signed off on my 141's flight card that it lacked all the safety features needed for a safe trip over to Hickam AFB in HI. After my 12 hour shift was over, I headed back to the barracks and went to sleep...

... boom boom boom at my front door and here is this staff sergeant sent over, gets me out of bed, drives me back to the flight line, and has me undo me red X's so the plane could take off missing essential safety equipment... yes the plane made it, but what if? What if something happened, the plane had to ditch somewhere between CA and HI and crew members died... that would be on my soul.

Not to play Monday morning quarterback, as my stint in the AF was in the mid 80's before Challenger, but I would NEVER had allowed Challenged to fly based on the recommendation from Thiokol. That is ALL it would take for me. I realize others don't mind rolling dice with other people's lives, but I CERTAINLY don't!

I don't like managers, never have and never will! Managers are one of the major road blocks and sources of screw ups in an organization! The NASA managers and the Thiokol managers that saw G-32 -> G-33 raises, and billion dollar contracts are why we lost Challenger and her crew. Managers ... I can't say what I really want to say about them here...

J


hehehe... sitting on the runway, if they WERE accurate, at least it'd be over quick!

I know what you mean... (enjoyed meeting you too at NARAM!) Basically that's why I got canned last year... I REFUSED to drive buses with mechanical problems... which were RIFE in our school district... slick tires, faulty brakes, SEVERE air brake system leaks that would empty the tanks in less than 5 minutes after shutdown (drivers are supposed to crank the engine and run it until the air system is at full pressure, shut the engine down (to stop the compressor) and release the parking brake (putting air in the spring brake chambers to release them) and hold the service brakes at a steady pressure for 2 minutes, in which time the air system was NOT SUPPOSED TO DROP BY MORE THAN 2 PSI... if it dropped more, the air brake system was considered a "severe leak" and was to be put "out of service" until the system was repaired... Heck probably 1/4 of our buses wouldn't pass that test!) I saw every basic safety rule in the book flouted routinely... It really made me sick... but again, "no harm, no foul" was the ONLY rule that mattered in management's mind...

When I was growing grain, I had a '66 Chevy 2.5 ton truck I hauled 30,000 pounds of grain on at a time 26 miles to the elevator... when I had it inspected, EVERY LIGHT had to burn, the parking brake had to work, the service brakes had to stop quickly and smoothly, the tires had to be in GOOD shape, horn had to work, etc. etc. etc... Yet I was ROUTINELY sent out in a bus with bad brakes, slick tires, half the lights not working, air brake leaks, faulty equipment (transmission in the process of failing, engine in the process of failing, driveshaft in the process of failing, etc.-- stuff you could FEEL, HEAR, SEE, or SMELL that wasn't right and ANY mechanic trainee could identify as a "soon to fail" issue). I mean, when I hauled BULK GRAIN in an old 66 Chevy dozen times a year or so, it had to be in better shape than a SCHOOLBUS FULL OF KIDS going out morning and evening EVERY SINGLE SCHOOLDAY!!!

Eventually that and my insistence that the kids actually behave and not beat each other's brains out, steal from each other, victimize each other, and stay in their seats so if we DID get in a wreck they'd have the best chance of surviving unscathed managed to get me fired...

Oh well... sooner or later "no harm, no foul" pops up and bites you like a KING COBRA, and when it does, there will be some folks with a lot of hard questions to answer... and they'll have to live with knowing that the kids that end up getting buried didn't have to die IF THEY HAD DONE THE JOB THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO DO.

Later! OL JR
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Old 01-30-2012, 12:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cohetero-negro
JFK assassination... that was the day we lost the Republic in my honest opinion.

Lots of issues there...

How did Oswald know to get a job in that building weeks before?

Why was the motorcade changed at the last moment to drive by that building?

Why does Kennedy's head violently thrust backwards towards the trunk as part of his brain casing falls into the hood of the trunk and you see Jackie reaching back to retrieve it; indicating that the 'kill shot' came from the right and forward and not from the book repository building... some say the second gunman was hidden at street level in a storm drain in the direction of the grassy knoll. Oswald was the patsy, the fall guy.

Yet I am supposed to believe in my fellow citizens ability to reason ... I just can't I honestly just can't anymore, I'm sorry for us all...

J


Yeah, I agree... Kennedy was the last President that really wasn't controlled by the puppetmasters behind the curtains... that's why he was rubbed out. Johnson played ball with them and Vietnam left such a bad taste in his mouth he wouldn't run again. They rubbed out RFK before he could cause any problems for them... Nixon was wily and paranoid, and basically brought himself down... Ford was a stooge, Carter was an inept stooge-- a few "good intentions" but then again the path to hell is paved with them... Reagan was right up their alley, Bush I too until the economy tanked and the Gulf War ended after 100 hours, before the big money people could make a REAL killing... Clinton was too busy chasing skirts to know or care, Bush II was a "good company man", and Obama's just a puppet and mouthpiece...

My old man goes on and on about the primaries... he's watching them like a hawk... it turns my stomach because they're just trotting out the same old line of nutjobs they've run time and again before... including "governor goodhair" (Perry) from Texas, Bush II's hand-picked successor after he left the governorship for the white house... (and Perry is about the biggest NUTJOB and LIAR we've had in Texas in probably the last 40 years!) Perry pretty much demonstrated his idiocy in the primaries (so I've heard) and is out of the running... but REALLY... this is the BEST we can come up with??

Looks like the only people who can become President anymore are the biggest nutjob ideologues that the PTB can come up with... that's why I don't have ANY faith in the US system of Gov't anymore... it's ALL managed from behind the scenes-- it's a playact put on by the puppetmasters for the public's amusement, keep the lulled into getting 30 year mortgages and investing in retirement accounts and Wall Street wizards and "welcome Walmart Shoppers!!!" THAT is what America is all about nowdays...

Just a matter of time before someone hands us our @$$ for a hat... one way or the other...
Later! OL JR
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Old 01-30-2012, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luke strawwalker
Dad was working nights at the nuke plant, FWIW, IMHO... OL JR


Which one? South Texas? or Comanche Peak? I was doing start-up engineering at Comanche Peak when Challenger blew up.
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