Ye Olde Rocket Forum

Go Back   Ye Olde Rocket Forum > The Golden Age of Model Rocketry > Model Rocket History
User Name
Password
Auctions Register FAQ Members List Calendar Today's Posts Search Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #21  
Old 01-16-2014, 11:02 AM
Daddyisabar Daddyisabar is offline
Craftsman
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Littleton, Colorado
Posts: 411
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Irvine
Estes (Vern) threw them under the bus, HARD.
He personally did the same thing with "sparkies".

Let's at least be historically accurate.


I have heard a lot of this from cranky old Denver area rocketeers. All the "he screwed me and didn't pay for this and that, or this or that blew up and had to skedaddle here or there, or this or that was stolen," and on and on and on. I just chalk it up to a bunch of sour grapes, hearsay and that maybe someone was a better businessman and Capitalist and got things done. I want my model rocket history to be Happy-Happy-Happy, draped in Glory and mystique. We need or Hero's, our October Sky movie creation myths. I need to look at the photo of Vern with his Klingon beard in the '74 catalog and release those happy, inner child memories. If some little people got trampled over and left in the dust bin of History by the strong then so be it, that's the way things are. Who cares if Thomas Edison might have out flanked Hiram Maxim on the incandescent light bulb, Hiram's later inventions made the world a better place.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 01-16-2014, 03:36 PM
luke strawwalker's Avatar
luke strawwalker luke strawwalker is offline
BAR
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Needville and Shiner, TX
Posts: 5,822
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddyisabar
I have heard a lot of this from cranky old Denver area rocketeers. All the "he screwed me and didn't pay for this and that, or this or that blew up and had to skedaddle here or there, or this or that was stolen," and on and on and on. I just chalk it up to a bunch of sour grapes, hearsay and that maybe someone was a better businessman and Capitalist and got things done. I want my model rocket history to be Happy-Happy-Happy, draped in Glory and mystique. We need or Hero's, our October Sky movie creation myths. I need to look at the photo of Vern with his Klingon beard in the '74 catalog and release those happy, inner child memories. If some little people got trampled over and left in the dust bin of History by the strong then so be it, that's the way things are. Who cares if Thomas Edison might have out flanked Hiram Maxim on the incandescent light bulb, Hiram's later inventions made the world a better place.


Exactly...

I'm no fan of sparkies... they're fireworks IMHO, designed for effects rather than propulsion, and thus fireworks. I suppose they're fine for desert launches where the fire risk from them is minimal, but NO WAY would I EVER allow them to be flown on my place-- and if they were the clubs flying on our land would be looking for a new launch site. They've caused too many problems and they're not worth the risks IMHO.

Justify it or argue about it all you want, vilify or flame me, whatever, but the simple fact is, that sparkies cause a heck of a lot more problems than they're worth...

Later! OL JR
__________________
The X-87B Cruise Basselope-- THE Ultimate Weapon in the arsenal of Homeland Security and only $52 million per round!
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 01-18-2014, 01:06 AM
Fireman Fireman is offline
Intermediate Rocketeer
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 40
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Irvine
If you can give me dates I can research them and bring them to the magic of the internet for all the little kids to see for a decade into the future. The thing about the past is most of it is NOT on the internet. I got on the internet IIRC in 1992, after the majority of model rocket history had happened. The following era was HPR (started by me in 1978 and adopted by TRA/NAR in 1984-6).

I think USR was the first rocket company with a website. I was playing with html (and email and FTP) and said, "I can do this!"

Jealous of your NAR numbers . . . .

NAR 24333
Polaris section 193 (after NAR added 100 to all section numbers)
TRA 012 founder
Lucerne Test Range Prefecture #007 founder.

Coulda had a lower number but I asked for a license to kill!




Jerry,

My magazines, like most of my old rocket stuff, are in storage in Colorado Springs while I am working in the Midwest, so I don't have access to most of that information right now. Next time I get home, I will look them up and try to get the info to you. I would love to see them on the internet so a new generation (and an old generation as well) can see them.

The article refered to above from PM (I finally stopped looking at the picture long enough to READ the article.) Man, talk about hard-core rocketry! A rocket propelled by liquid oxygen and thiakol rubber? Good heavens! That was a different world from the one we now know, and no mistake. Sometimes I wonder how I ever got to be this old. Oh, I guess I got to be this old by not dieing sooner...

Other than fiction, like October Skies, do you know if there has ever been a definnitive history written about those early, pre-NAR amature rocket days?

The Fireman
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 01-18-2014, 02:20 AM
blackshire's Avatar
blackshire blackshire is offline
Master Modeler
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska
Posts: 5,561
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Irvine
I showed the pic to a girl who grew up in the 60's and she said bras with pointy tips on them were common then. Probably easier to fab than a form fitting one like today. Also wearing a bra was a social norm. Women burned their bras in the mid-60's and beyond.

Jerry

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-KKYEubFu0

Although this is a rocket site and nobody seems to care what the rockets are . . . .
Even the term that "less generously-endowed" women used back then for strategically-placed powder puffs ("Gay Deceivers") might be considered offensive in some quarters today. Ironically, I learned that term from the play "The Glass Menagerie," whose playwright--Tennessee Williams--*was* gay...
__________________
Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
NAR #54895 SR
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 01-18-2014, 02:32 AM
blackshire's Avatar
blackshire blackshire is offline
Master Modeler
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska
Posts: 5,561
Default

It could be argued that the first commercially-available model rockets were introduced in 1947 by Wilmot & Mansour (see: www.jetex.org). The Jetex line, which even Centuri carried some of in its earliest years, included vertically-launched, parachute-recovered models such as the V-2-like "Dan Dare Spaceship" and the two-stage, scale-like "Jetnik" (or "Jet-Nik") satellite launch vehicle.
__________________
Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
NAR #54895 SR
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 01-18-2014, 05:50 AM
Jerry Irvine's Avatar
Jerry Irvine Jerry Irvine is offline
Freeform rocketry advocate.
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Claremont, CA "The intellectual capitol of the world."-WSJ
Posts: 3,438
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
It could be argued that the first commercially-available model rockets were introduced in 1947 by Wilmot & Mansour (see: www.jetex.org). The Jetex line, which even Centuri carried some of in its earliest years, included vertically-launched, parachute-recovered models such as the V-2-like "Dan Dare Spaceship" and the two-stage, scale-like "Jetnik" (or "Jet-Nik") satellite launch vehicle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by article
The Dan Dare Space ship was most ingenious. The motor pressed on a spring-loaded catch; when the fuel was exhausted the catch released and the parachute deployed (see photos). One problem with the comparatively low power-to-weight ratio was marginal stability at lift-off; Peter overcame this with a substantial spring-loaded launch pad to give a high initial acceleration.
I see. Attachments.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:  pic_1-spaceship-dan_dare-rs-236w.jpg
Views: 67
Size:  5.6 KB  Click image for larger version

Name:  pic-spaceship-dan_dare-236w.jpg
Views: 56
Size:  9.0 KB  
__________________
Exemptions not regulations. Please support DOT treating slow burning solids as not subject to HMR. 2015 NAR President declines!
U.S. Rockets instaship. http://bit.ly/1aca7mA Please buy some rockets.
The O administration believed in tax, spend, borrow, fine, mandate, monologue. D voters will soon be very happy with the election outcome!
Model rocketry is as safe as safe can be defined in human existence. Bow and pray: GH Stine, Orville, Vern, Lee, Lonnie, Carl, etc. No, really.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 01-18-2014, 06:42 AM
Jerry Irvine's Avatar
Jerry Irvine Jerry Irvine is offline
Freeform rocketry advocate.
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Claremont, CA "The intellectual capitol of the world."-WSJ
Posts: 3,438
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireman
do you know if there has ever been a definitive history written about those early, pre-NAR amateur rocket days?
I have found each person has a different view of early history.

I suggest searching for stories by
Chuck Piper
Ray Goodson
Jerry Irvine
George James

You should find them on rec.models.rockets as well as the earliest Rocketry Online. I am pretty sure most of the messages which in any way disparaged TRA have been deleted by Troj and no longer exist. I do not know of a backup that is online and I seem to recall archive.org is not helpful for database stored message boards.

Here is the current RRS party line:

http://www.rrs.org/main/index.php?o...id=20&Itemid=33

Some groups actively delete stories by persons other than themselves as possible.

So unless someone interviews the principals before they die, plenty of history will be lost forever.

Jerry
__________________
Exemptions not regulations. Please support DOT treating slow burning solids as not subject to HMR. 2015 NAR President declines!
U.S. Rockets instaship. http://bit.ly/1aca7mA Please buy some rockets.
The O administration believed in tax, spend, borrow, fine, mandate, monologue. D voters will soon be very happy with the election outcome!
Model rocketry is as safe as safe can be defined in human existence. Bow and pray: GH Stine, Orville, Vern, Lee, Lonnie, Carl, etc. No, really.

Last edited by Jerry Irvine : 01-18-2014 at 07:37 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 01-18-2014, 08:15 AM
blackshire's Avatar
blackshire blackshire is offline
Master Modeler
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska
Posts: 5,561
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Irvine
I see. Attachments.
Thank you for posting that. The Jetex.org website is down--its creator, Roger Simmonds, has been working toward re-launching it, and I hope this is it! The smaller Jetex motors were very marginal at best for powering VTO (Vertical Take-Off) models, usually requiring an elastic catapult assist. But the Jetex 50-HT ("High-Thrust," having a loaded weight of 0.5 ounces and a thrust of 5 ounces) and the Jetex Scorpion 600 (loaded weight 2 ounces, thrust 5.5 - 6 ounces [without augmentor tube; 7 - 7.5 ounces with augmentor tube]) were specifically designed for VTO models of missiles and rockets. Paul Del Gatto, a prolific American Jetex model designer, created a beautiful Bomarc that was powered by a Scorpion 600 and two low-thrust 50B Jetex motors.
__________________
Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
NAR #54895 SR
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 01-18-2014, 09:42 AM
tbzep's Avatar
tbzep tbzep is online now
Dazed and Confused
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: TN
Posts: 8,618
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Irvine
I have found each person has a different view of early history.

I suggest searching for stories by
Chuck Piper
Ray Goodson
Jerry Irvine
George James

You should find them on rec.models.rockets as well as the earliest Rocketry Online. I am pretty sure most of the messages which in any way disparaged TRA have been deleted by Troj and no longer exist. I do not know of a backup that is online and I seem to recall archive.org is not helpful for database stored message boards.

Here is the current RRS party line:

http://www.rrs.org/main/index.php?o...id=20&Itemid=33

Some groups actively delete stories by persons other than themselves as possible.

So unless someone interviews the principals before they die, plenty of history will be lost forever.

Jerry

Are the old Compuserve lists archived anywhere?
__________________
I love sanding.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 01-18-2014, 12:03 PM
ed.brown ed.brown is offline
Junior Rocketeer
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daddyisabar
I have heard a lot of this from cranky old Denver area rocketeers. All the "he screwed me and didn't pay for this and that, or this or that blew up and had to skedaddle here or there, or this or that was stolen," and on and on and on. I just chalk it up to a bunch of sour grapes, hearsay and that maybe someone was a better businessman and Capitalist and got things done. I want my model rocket history to be Happy-Happy-Happy, draped in Glory and mystique. We need or Hero's, our October Sky movie creation myths. I need to look at the photo of Vern with his Klingon beard in the '74 catalog and release those happy, inner child memories. If some little people got trampled over and left in the dust bin of History by the strong then so be it, that's the way things are. Who cares if Thomas Edison might have out flanked Hiram Maxim on the incandescent light bulb, Hiram's later inventions made the world a better place.


I've known Vern and Gleda since March of 1966 When Vern hired me. He is my number one hero and always will be (although Carl and Sheryl McLawhorn as well as Leroy Piester and his family come close, but I didn't know them quite as well). While I've heard some of the same stories, I place a minimum of credence in them. They all went through very lean times in pioneering and developing this hobby for the rest of us. I know of many times when they all helped their workers, customers and total strangers with no publicity or fanfare. Vern was always willing to listen and consider our ideas and encouraged us all to develop personally by example and in many other ways. They were all human in the best sense of the word and being human I'm sure they made mistakes just like the rest of us. But they went out of their way to correct them also.

This is my sincere opinion,
Ed Brown
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:55 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Ye Olde Rocket Shoppe 1998-2018