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  #21  
Old 03-17-2014, 11:44 PM
luke strawwalker's Avatar
luke strawwalker luke strawwalker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billspad
Can you cite your source for this? I know how to find out how many NAR members there are. Do the foil ball collectors have a website?



Here are accurate numbers from Ted's last Electronic Rocketeer:

NAR membership: 5704

Since last year: +33

Since last month: +36

NAR membership remains near its all-time high, up over 600 members in the last 3 years


Maybe he's talking about people making tinfoil hats...

We KNOW there's a WHOLE BUNCH of those... LOL

Later! OL JR
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  #22  
Old 03-18-2014, 07:16 AM
Jerry Irvine's Avatar
Jerry Irvine Jerry Irvine is offline
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On the other hand more people have been killed by needlepoint than model rocketry, by far.

My point is the NAR membership numbers (<6000) pale in comparison to essentially anything and everything, and that the persons participating in model rocketry are quite numerous (>200,000).

The same model could readily be applied to FAA exempt HPR. Heck some effort could be made to increase NAR membership in a different way than tried before. But, you know, it's not.

Jerry
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  #23  
Old 03-18-2014, 06:24 PM
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dlazarus6660 dlazarus6660 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luke strawwalker
Maybe he's talking about people making tinfoil hats...

We KNOW there's a WHOLE BUNCH of those... LOL

Later! OL JR


HEY! I resemble that remark!
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  #24  
Old 03-20-2014, 10:09 PM
Fireman Fireman is offline
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Paul,

God bless you for having plenty of money for the things you need. It might well amaze you to know that not everybody is in that shape. I had to drop my cable tv years ago too... I haven't had a TV at all since the airwaves were digitized, making all old tvs useless. And before you tell me to get a job, I will point out that I work 40 hours a week and have the same job I have had for 10 years now. I know it may seem silly to a younger generation, who have grown up on entitlements, but I pay my own way without help from the taxpayers of this great nation of ours.My grocery budget for a month is less than what that NAR membership would cost.

I would dearly love to be a member again. If they offered a senior membership (with no magazine and no frills) at a reasonable price, I would love to again be a member of an organization that has meant a lot to me since back when I first joined as member 2217 of the organization. But at the current price, I can see that the organization has no desire to include seniors like myself in their membership. We were the ones who built the hobby and created the NAR. But we don't have the cash that the wealthy high power boys have, so we are of no interest to the organization.

I'm not trying to pick on you, and I am not trying to start a fight. Paul, may you always have that cable TV, and a nice shiny car, and a warm place to live. But just for a moment, please stop and realize that their are many people in this country that are not as well off as you are. And whatever you do, never, never, never grow old.

The Fireman

formerly NAR2217,
Peak City Section #2


Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulK
Sheesh, the $62 YEARLY cost of NAR membership is less than one MONTH of combined cable TV/Internet. I don't see what you folks are complaining about, I really don't.

Support the NAR. It's good for the hobby, it's good for you if you're in the hobby, and it's a drop in the bucket compared to your other bills.
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  #25  
Old 03-20-2014, 11:31 PM
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luke strawwalker luke strawwalker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireman
Paul,

God bless you for having plenty of money for the things you need. It might well amaze you to know that not everybody is in that shape. I had to drop my cable tv years ago too... I haven't had a TV at all since the airwaves were digitized, making all old tvs useless. And before you tell me to get a job, I will point out that I work 40 hours a week and have the same job I have had for 10 years now. I know it may seem silly to a younger generation, who have grown up on entitlements, but I pay my own way without help from the taxpayers of this great nation of ours.My grocery budget for a month is less than what that NAR membership would cost.

I would dearly love to be a member again. If they offered a senior membership (with no magazine and no frills) at a reasonable price, I would love to again be a member of an organization that has meant a lot to me since back when I first joined as member 2217 of the organization. But at the current price, I can see that the organization has no desire to include seniors like myself in their membership. We were the ones who built the hobby and created the NAR. But we don't have the cash that the wealthy high power boys have, so we are of no interest to the organization.

I'm not trying to pick on you, and I am not trying to start a fight. Paul, may you always have that cable TV, and a nice shiny car, and a warm place to live. But just for a moment, please stop and realize that their are many people in this country that are not as well off as you are. And whatever you do, never, never, never grow old.

The Fireman

formerly NAR2217,
Peak City Section #2


Well said...

It's not just the older folks having a hard time of it... I consider myself pretty lucky to have even a hundred or two hundred bucks a year to dedicate to a hobby.

I just think the "one size fits all" approach is wrong. Granted I understand that the leadership and certain segments of the membership would disagree with that statement, but it doesn't make the point any less valid as an alternative.

Lots of arguments can be thrown around about "an organization has to be funded first" and all this sort of thing, but if the "one size fits all" approach is locking people out that would otherwise pursue SOME form of membership, then I personally think it's a bad approach.

HPR came along, and the insurance went up, and there was a kerfluffe I read about somewhere during the 90's where NAR had a hard time getting insurance, so they made it mandatory for ALL members to get insurance, as part of the membership. So, the lowly model rocketeer is forced to pay higher prices for something for which they have little use, whose price has gone up due to bigger, more risky activities done by folks with money to burn. Makes perfect sense to me...

Course I've personally seen HPR guys that think nothing of spending over $100 bucks on a SINGLE FLIGHT whine and complain about having to drive 2.5 hours to a launch in a small car-- like buying $40 bucks in gas was going to put them in the poor house... Heck I've seen guys who'll drive halfway across the US to a big HPR launch and think nothing of it, rent motels and spend a lot of money on food, gas, not to mention reloads and stuff for flying, gripe and complain about the 2.5 hour drive to their "local" HPR field, and then start pressuring me to allow HPR flights on my farms (where a couple different clubs have flown) so they don't have to drive so far... Boggles the mind sometimes...

Just like the BATFE lawsuit was to protect HPR, but EVERYONE ended up having to pay for it via their NAR dues whether they flew HPR or not...

Even the AMA has realized that things are changing in their hobby, and having to make adjustments... their membership had been falling too so I've read, as the days of the "old school" balsa kit plane builders has been largely dwindling in favor of the new "turn key" ARF/RTF foamy park flyers and electrics... as the core membership "old school" gray beards die off or get too old to build and fly anymore, the newbies are flying the ARF foamy park flyers and stuff and "aren't welcome" by "serious" model airplane enthusiasts, and so hence are reluctant to join AMA. After all, most of the focus of membership and most of the costs involved are for insurance, mostly needed by old, rich guys flying big four engine bombers and other giant-scale projects or high-speed turbine planes and stuff where an accident could be catastrophically expensive, and thus require insurance-- insurance that is expensive and borne by EVERYBODY paying dues (under their old "one size fits all" mentality), to protect mostly rich guys with "big toys" who have money to burn... If I'm flying foamy electrics, why would I want to spend my hard earned money for THAT?? I understand now AMA has "branched out" and is embracing the small park flyer crowd and doing more to bring them in and make them feel welcome, with different lower cost membership options and stuff...

Maybe NAR should think about doing something like that for the "model rocket ONLY" (LPR/MPR, class 1 only rocketeers) segment of the rocket hobbiests, instead of simply trying to make itself into a clone of Tripoli...

Nah, never happen...

Later! OL JR

PS. Now I'm sure I'll get flamed into oblivion for "disagreeing" about HPR...
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  #26  
Old 03-21-2014, 09:45 AM
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Jerry Irvine Jerry Irvine is offline
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I posted a suggestion of an "altruistic membership" which is a euphamism for a donation, which was challenged by a rabbit using what I felt was a failure of logic, implying more money for less service expense would somehow make the association less solvent. The opposite is the case obviously.

The concern of some folks not being able to afford the membership is very real. I have met dozens of old school model rocketeers in CA who are on fixed income, typically social security, and have very tight budgets. But plenty of time on their hands for modeling.

I think the experience I had at my own very large sport launches which had between 1000 and 4000 pretty regularly in attendance from all levels of life, is instructive. I had a voluntary range fee of $5. Most people simply paid $5. Some folks militantly refused to pay on the principal it was only voluntary. Fine. Others legitimately felt they could not budget that $5 or were a kid. That's why I had it.

But something very interesting happened. Some folks noticed the people not paying and said, "I'll toss in extra to cover them." That reminded me of church offerings where the amount was associated with their own financial comfort or altruism.

That model could be applied to NAR where donors provide a pool of funds that others can apply for like a scholorship. It seems silly that our beloved low number members who may be quite motivated to be a member, cannot because of the cost and there is no alternative. I am not suggesting some sort of taxpayer funded boondoggle either. Voluntary charity in this country was the welfare and medical system before the government got involved contrary to the Constitution.

The other thing I have suggested for NAR is the endowment fund be managed more like the one at Pomona College, or Harvey Mudd College, where the funds are invested in hedge funds and the proceeds are used to build permanent infrastructure. They actively seek to be in the loop on estate planning as well by their alumni and supporters.

Jerry
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The O administration believed in tax, spend, borrow, fine, mandate, monologue. D voters will soon be very happy with the election outcome!
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  #27  
Old 03-21-2014, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireman
Paul,

...

The Fireman
Point taken Fireman. My point was directed at folks who could afford it, yet choose not to. FWIW, I don't subscribe cable/satellite/uverse TV.
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  #28  
Old 03-21-2014, 10:45 PM
Fireman Fireman is offline
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No offense intended, Paul. It hurt like hell when I had to give up my membership in the NAR for financial reasons. Model rocketry has been a part of my life since a time when my primary income was the fifty cents a week allowance I got, along with spare change made by mowing lawns and cleaning basements.

I have never quite consideed myself a BAR, since I never really left rocketry... Through the years, I would build and fly for my own enjoyment, and I can't tell you how many boys and girls (yes, GIRLS) I have introduced to the hobby. Watching them build a rocket from scratch, and seeing their eyes as THEIR rocket streaked heavenward has been one of the delights of my life. I still do that when I can, of course, but I miss the NAR. I feel not so much like I left it, as that it left me.

I am happy as can be that you and the rest of the Old Rocket Forum people are here, to support the hobby, to encourage other hobbyists, and to "keep 'em flying." It means a lot to me that you and the others are here so a sometimes crochety old man has someone to tell his stories to, and occasionally to rant to. Thank you!

The Fireman,

formerly NAR 2217,
Peak City Section #2


Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulK
Point taken Fireman. My point was directed at folks who could afford it, yet choose not to. FWIW, I don't subscribe cable/satellite/uverse TV.
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  #29  
Old 03-21-2014, 10:52 PM
Fireman Fireman is offline
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Luke, Jerry, Paul, Yousah, et al.

Thank you for your time and thoughts on this situation. I hope things will change someday... I just hope that I and some of the other "old-timers" will still be here to see it.

In the mean time, thank you all for putting up with my ranting.

The Fireman,

formerly NAR 2217,

Peak City Section #2
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  #30  
Old 03-22-2014, 11:04 PM
luke strawwalker's Avatar
luke strawwalker luke strawwalker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireman
Luke, Jerry, Paul, Yousah, et al.

Thank you for your time and thoughts on this situation. I hope things will change someday... I just hope that I and some of the other "old-timers" will still be here to see it.

In the mean time, thank you all for putting up with my ranting.

The Fireman,

formerly NAR 2217,

Peak City Section #2


Glad to do it... enjoy your "ranting"....

Sometimes you have to kick a boulder to get it rolling...

Later! OL JR
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