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Old 09-08-2016, 01:22 PM
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Default Original Orville Carlisle Motor Questions

In doing some research I was looking at picutures and descriptions on the Smithsonian site. I noticed that the original Rock-A-Chute motors, made by Orville Carlisle himself were actually 13 mm motors ("Dimensions: Overall: 1/2in. x 3 3/8in. (1.3 x 8.57cm)"). The motors in the pictures below (from NASM) have printed labels so they were actual "production run" motors meant for sale, made by Orville himself, before G. Harry and before the motors made by Brown Manufacturing.

So a few questions:

Does anyone know why the switch was made from 13mm to 18mm?

Does anyone have any pictures of either these motors being used or the motor mounts of the earliest Carlisle rockets.

Does anyone know if the test models G. Harry initially got from Orville used these same 13 mm motors (I presume so since these were given to NASM by G. Harry).

Finally, does anyone have any idea what Orville Carlisles designations of "4-4" and "4-4-2" on the motors stood for?

Thanks,

Steve
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Last edited by Gus : 09-08-2016 at 01:51 PM.
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  #2  
Old 09-08-2016, 01:52 PM
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Did you intend to post photos?
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  #3  
Old 09-08-2016, 01:59 PM
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I did find this one picture from the Quest Model Rocketry Museum site that appears to show a 13mm motor in a short orange rocket (with white nosecone) in the lower left corner.
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Old 09-08-2016, 02:18 PM
jbuscaglia jbuscaglia is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gus
In doing some research I was looking at picutures and descriptions on the Smithsonian site. I noticed that the original Rock-A-Chute motors, made by Orville Carlisle himself were actually 13 mm motors ("Dimensions: Overall: 1/2in. x 3 3/8in. (1.3 x 8.57cm)"). The motors in the pictures below (from NASM) have printed labels so they were actual "production run" motors meant for sale, made by Orville himself, before G. Harry and before the motors made by Brown Manufacturing.

So a few questions:

Does anyone know why the switch was made from 13mm to 18mm?

Does anyone have any pictures of either these motors being used or the motor mounts of the earliest Carlisle rockets.

Does anyone know if the test models G. Harry initially got from Orville used these same 13 mm motors (I presume so since these were given to NASM by G. Harry).

Finally, does anyone have any idea what Orville Carlisles designations of "4-4" and "4-4-2" on the motors stood for?

Thanks,

Steve


G. Harry wrote some articles on the "Early Days" that I remember reading in The Model Rocketeer back in the late '70s when he was the editor. I believe that similar articles may have also appeared previously in Model Rocketry Magazine. In one, Harry mentions that they switched to 18mm when they went to Brown because the cost would be much less since they could use existing tooling.
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Old 09-08-2016, 02:25 PM
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OK, I found some pictures from G. Harry's original article in Mechanix Illustrated from October 1957 that show the motors, clearly 13 mm. I had no idea.
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Old 09-08-2016, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbuscaglia
G. Harry wrote some articles on the "Early Days" that I remember reading in The Model Rocketeer back in the late '70s when he was the editor. I believe that similar articles may have also appeared previously in Model Rocketry Magazine. In one, Harry mentions that they switched to 18mm when they went to Brown because the cost would be much less since they could use existing tooling.


That's what I recall from that series 'NAR Roots' that Harry wrote in the latter 70s, in the NAR magazine. As I recall, Harry said that Orv could make maybe a couple hundred motors per night at home, but that was not going to be enough for their hopeful sales once MMI went full commercial. Brown said he could make them the same size (13mm) if they wanted, but (as you alluded), he could make them cheaper by using the 18mm tubes from his standard fireworks stuff. So, 18mm it became.

Some years later of course, various manufacturers came back out with 13mm stuff, one in the mid-60s or so that only lasted a year or two (forget their name), and then with MRI/MPC, Estes, and Centuri. I guess the Centuri minis were probably closer -- overall-- to the original Carlisle motors, considering their original longer length.

So, Harry said in those articiles, that, somewhat unknowingly in that one simple decision, they 'set the standard' for model rocket motor size that most manufactures would follow for decades. But, I recall seeing somewhere a comparison photo of an original Brown motor side by side with 'modern' 18mm motors, and I swear that Brown motor appeared to be a bit shorter than the current-day standard. But, coulda just been the photo.

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Last edited by Earl : 09-08-2016 at 04:02 PM. Reason: Fix'n Spellin'
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  #7  
Old 09-08-2016, 04:37 PM
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G. Harry Stine wrote an article called "The First Model Rockets" that appeared in the May 1970 Model Rocketry magazine. He stated that the motors were 0.5" by 2.25" inches, which I think was the size that the later Centuri 13mm motors emulated. The "4" in the designation of the Carlisle motors was 4 Nt-sec. Stine stated that the 4-4-2 motor was the equivalent of a NAR Type B4-4.

His later article in the July 1971 MR magazine was titled "Engines Full Circle". The article includes a picture of the early Carlisle motor through the MPC 13mm Mini-jet motor. The move to 18mm apparently occured in the late 1957 to mid-1958 when the Brown motors were being made. He also states the he met Vern Estes in July '58.
At that time Stine was working with or for MPC and he was plugging rhe motors. I actually was working with Dr. Gregorek and helped static test the Mini-jets for certification along with George Pantalos and Doug Ball at Ohio State.

NARTS does make available a CD of scans of Model Rocketry magazine. My old computer would not open them. But I have the magazines in my lap...

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Old 09-08-2016, 04:43 PM
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http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/rockets.html

Link to the Ninfinger website. Under "Other Companies" he has that link to Model Rocketry magazine. I thought it was there, but missed it on the first look.

Enjoy!
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Old 09-08-2016, 07:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chas Russell
http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/rockets.html

Link to the Ninfinger website. Under "Other Companies" he has that link to Model Rocketry magazine. I thought it was there, but missed it on the first look.

Enjoy!

Making it quicker:

MR mag list
http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/Mo...elRocketry.html

May 1970
http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/Mo...02n08_05-70.pdf

July 1971
http://www.ninfinger.org/rockets/Mo...03n09_07-71.pdf



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Old 09-08-2016, 09:25 PM
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G. Harry tells that story at the bottom of page 8 and top of page 9 here: http://www.questaerospace.com/image...tine_Memoir.pdf
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