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  #11  
Old 11-29-2017, 12:41 PM
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blackshire blackshire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
I have no problem with environmental regulation just as long as it is no stronger than that followed by Shell Oil, Dow Chemical, Chevron-Ortho, and General Motors in the 1950's.
No joke.
I don't know...at that time (I read a mid-1950s "Popular Science" or "Popular Mechanics" article about this, many years later), *hydrazine* was considered an agricultural "wonder chemical." The article had photographs of onions for sale in the produce section of a grocery store; they hadn't sprouted because they'd been sprayed with hydrazine. It also showed a young man walking along a railroad right-of-way with a pump sprayer, spraying the weeds with hydrazine to kill them--and to *keep* them from growing back, and:

Today, we know--and it's possible that it was known back then, at least in part--that hydrazine is not only highly toxic and an eye and nose irritant, but is carcinogenic and mutagenic as well (and inhaling even a little of it can destroy the aveoli in the lungs, causing a horrible death (dinitrogen textroxide, hydrazine's frequent "oxidizer partner," is even worse).

In his 1957 book about Project Vanguard, "The Making of a Moon: The Story of the Earth Satellite Program," Arthur C. Clarke wrote that hydrazine (he was referring to the UDMH variety) "...is a liquid at ordinary temperatures, and though slightly toxic is stable and generally well behaved." It's only "slightly toxic" in comparison to, say, hydrogen cyanide or fluorine... :-) Just as Dow Chemical had Agent Orange and Agent Pink, hydrazine might as well have been called--for its defoliant application--"Agent Clear."
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  #12  
Old 11-29-2017, 02:01 PM
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ghrocketman ghrocketman is offline
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2,4,5-T (Silvex) was responsible for the problems in Agent Orange.
Agent Orange was a 50/50 mix of 2,4-D (Still widely used in products like Weed-B-Gon) and 2,4,5-T.
The problem with 2,4,5-T is that it has been found that it cannot be produced without producing TCDD (Dioxin) as a side-reaction and it is always present as a contaminant on the 2,4,5-T.
Hence 2,4,5-T was banned.
I know someone that still has several cans of the "old" formula "Weed-B-Gon" that is exactly the same as Agent Orange. That stuff was discontinued in like 1978 once they figured out the issue with 2,4,5-T and Dioxin contamination.

Now Weed-B-Gon is just largely 2,4-D with some other additives.
Naturally Enviro-WHACKOS want to ban 2,4-D as well as almost all other useful chemicals.

By the way, I LIIIIIKE both Hydrazine and Aniline.
Aniline makes an amazing octane-raising effect in Gasoline.
My Corvette likes Klotz Octane Booster Concentrate which is Aniline based. 1 pint in 18 Gallons of 93 octane makes it 103 octane.
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  #13  
Old 11-30-2017, 05:36 AM
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blackshire blackshire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
2,4,5-T (Silvex) was responsible for the problems in Agent Orange.
Agent Orange was a 50/50 mix of 2,4-D (Still widely used in products like Weed-B-Gon) and 2,4,5-T.
The problem with 2,4,5-T is that it has been found that it cannot be produced without producing TCDD (Dioxin) as a side-reaction and it is always present as a contaminant on the 2,4,5-T.
Hence 2,4,5-T was banned.
I know someone that still has several cans of the "old" formula "Weed-B-Gon" that is exactly the same as Agent Orange. That stuff was discontinued in like 1978 once they figured out the issue with 2,4,5-T and Dioxin contamination.

Now Weed-B-Gon is just largely 2,4-D with some other additives.
Naturally Enviro-WHACKOS want to ban 2,4-D as well as almost all other useful chemicals.

By the way, I LIIIIIKE both Hydrazine and Aniline.
Aniline makes an amazing octane-raising effect in Gasoline.
My Corvette likes Klotz Octane Booster Concentrate which is Aniline based. 1 pint in 18 Gallons of 93 octane makes it 103 octane.
There is also an extra-strength, very fast-acting "industrial-type" wasp and yellow jacket killer spray (its name escapes me, but telephone and electric utility companies use it) that contains a much-diluted amount of the VX nerve agent that was--and may still be--used in chemical weapons. My mother once got an aerosol spray can of it from a brother-in-law of mine who works at Southern Bell, and it killed cockroaches in five seconds, from pushing the button to the roach lying legs-up on the floor--with *no* "reflex-wriggling" of even one leg. Also:

I was exposed to Agent Orange in 1997. It's a long story, but the front and back yards of a late friend's home in Miami, where I stayed for a few weeks before I moved here to Fairbanks, Alaska, was sprayed--using a large, shoulder-carried pump sprayer--by his nephew, in order to kill the 10' tall sawgrass (the kind that grows in the Everglades swamp) that had "taken over" both yards. We all couldn't avoid exposure to it once it was sprayed, and the Agent Orange quickly killed the sawgrass--and every other plant that grew on that lot, leaving lifeless brown soil instead, and:

Not long afterward, my multiple diseases (ankylosing spondylitis, lymphedema, and cirrhosis [whose origin wasn't due to any variety of hepatitis--I was tested for all of them--or drinking, because I never did; one mixed drink every 2 -3 years or so is hardly a drinking habit]) began to appear, and quickly. My late friend's nephew, and his friend--who'd brought that "one last bottle of Agent Orange" from a pesticide warehouse where he worked--became afraid, after I told them about my sudden onset of the diseases. The cirrhosis wasn't discovered until I had my gallbladder removed in 2014 (the astonished surgeon showed me fiber-optic bore-scope-taken color photos of my "white polka-dotted" liver the next day, and ordered tests), but an odd liver function deficiency, which taking a magnesium supplement compensated for, had showed up some years before then in routine blood work, not long after I'd moved here, so:

As you've likely surmised, I'm not exactly thrilled about that reagent relic of the era of "Better living through chemistry," and the distinction that you related above is, to me, indistinct... I know Vietnam veterans who have the same health problems that I do as a result of exposure--often just a single one--to Agent Orange (I'm relatively lucky, as I haven't [yet] developed diabetes and/or cancer as many of them did as a result of their exposures [developing either one would mark my personal "GAME OVER" point, *already* having all of the other pains, debilitating problems, and never-ending treatments that I must deal with constantly]), and:

I have read that the Vietnamese people will be affected by that infernal concoction for up to *ten generations*, and that even the map of the country itself has been altered by Agent Orange, because whole areas--where grasses will no longer grow--have been eroded away. It causes numerous birth defects (fused eyelids are a particularly horrible one) and diseases such as diabetes and cancers. Regarding noxious and toxic rocket propellants:

Even China, where industrial pollution and its attendant health effects are abundantly manifest, is, like Russia, transitioning away from the toxic hypergolic liquid propellants to the much cleaner LOX/kerosene and LOX/LH2 combinations. (China's new kerolox-powered Long March 6 even uses hydrogen peroxide/kerosene to power its third and final stage; this is a clean yet powerful propellant combination which is storable--including its HTP [High-Test Peroxide] oxidizer--for more than long enough to comfortably complete multi-final stage burn missions when necessary). In addition:

While "green" alternatives exist, I have no problems with upper stages and spacecraft using the old, usually toxic, but effective, powerful, and storable bi-propellant (UDMH/WFNA, Aerozine 50/IRFNA, Aerozine 50/N2O4) and mono-propellant (H2O2, MMH [Mono-Methyl Hydrazine]) systems, because the quantities involved are small and because they are "self-consuming" if something goes wrong during launch. Ruptured lower stages, with their much larger tanks, can and do disperse large amounts of hypergolic fuel and/or oxidizer that don't come in contact with their "opposing reactants" (the spectacular "powered Proton prang" left a big reddish cloud of dinitrogen tetroxide in the air, which prompted the spectators' bus's drivers to load them up and leave before the cloud could reach them), while upper stages' and spacecraft's propellants don't spread far and soon contact and react with each other (that Delta II/Navstar [GPS] satellite blow-up video from some years back shows this happening immediately after the vehicle exploded).
__________________
Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
NAR #54895 SR

Last edited by blackshire : 12-02-2017 at 11:18 PM. Reason: I found a typo.
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  #14  
Old 12-02-2017, 10:43 AM
Neal Miller Neal Miller is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
2,4,5-T (Silvex) was responsible for the problems in Agent Orange.
Agent Orange was a 50/50 mix of 2,4-D (Still widely used in products like Weed-B-Gon) and 2,4,5-T.
The problem with 2,4,5-T is that it has been found that it cannot be produced without producing TCDD (Dioxin) as a side-reaction and it is always present as a contaminant on the 2,4,5-T.
Hence 2,4,5-T was banned.
I know someone that still has several cans of the "old" formula "Weed-B-Gon" that is exactly the same as Agent Orange. That stuff was discontinued in like 1978 once they figured out the issue with 2,4,5-T and Dioxin contamination.

Now Weed-B-Gon is just largely 2,4-D with some other additives.
Naturally Enviro-WHACKOS want to ban 2,4-D as well as almost all other useful chemicals.

By the way, I LIIIIIKE both Hydrazine and Aniline.
Aniline makes an amazing octane-raising effect in Gasoline.
My Corvette likes Klotz Octane Booster Concentrate which is Aniline based. 1 pint in 18 Gallons of 93 octane makes it 103 octane.


Hey G, Why not tell how both Dow and DuPont contaminated sub soil and ground water across most of the lower Peninsula of Michigan going back to the 50's. have they ever been made to pay for it? and yet you cannot dig a french drain or a gray water pond on privete property with out all the red tape and permits.
And Now: Here is something I think you will find funny.
Long a go when I was a young lad, I worked maintenance for Boulevard Heights Apartments in Pontiac Michigan. it was winter time and some tenants had moved out in the middle of the night, we went into the unit we discover that they had been living there with out heat or water.
and still they had kept using the toilet and the bowl was a frozen S&#tcile filled to the top.
we Duct taped the lid shut and had some labors removed it frozen and sent it to the dump.
the labors said it must of weighted 200 lbs.
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  #15  
Old 12-02-2017, 02:25 PM
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ghrocketman ghrocketman is offline
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GOTZ ta love that huge TURD-SICLE.

YEEEEEAAAAAAAHHHHHH !!!!
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  #16  
Old 12-02-2017, 07:21 PM
Neal Miller Neal Miller is offline
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Too bad We could not of had sent it to the Arctic and made it into a shrine.
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  #17  
Old 12-03-2017, 12:15 AM
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blackshire blackshire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neal Miller
Too bad We could not of had sent it to the Arctic and made it into a shrine.
We have enough of our own, thanks... I was even forced to create one, eleven years ago:

The sewer line under the street in front of my old house has--hopefully, *had*--a "dip" in it, due to an underground soil subsidence (we have a lot of underground discarded timbers and oil tanks which rot or rust away, leaving underground voids--many were discovered during last summer's installation of new water, steam, sewer, and electric lines downtown). Once and not uncommonly twice each winter, ice would build up in the dipped section, which blocked all of the drainage, including from the toilet. The city refused to do anything about it (they told me they would repair it when the line finally burst--"deferred maintenance" is commonly mentioned here, for financial reasons), but:

While I always called a local pumping & thawing company to open the ice blockage using steam, when my health went south I could no longer afford that, so I had to resort to a method not unlike that used by your "fly [away] by night" tenants. After the toilet filled up, I shoveled it into a black plastic trash bag, which I kept next to the sink's vanity. For a while I still had a tiny bit of drainage, so I showered as rapidly as I could (while standing well back, to avoid being splashed by the soon up-flowing liquefied sewage). Then:

When even that very slight drainage stopped, after each shower I bailed out the bathtub with a 2-liter soft drink bottle, whose top I cut off to facilitate faster filling and dumping. I poured this brown water outside, where it collected in the area where my front walk met the sidewalk (there was thick snow and plenty of ice everywhere else, so my strangely-colored slab of ice wasn't any more dangerous to walk on than any other place in town), and:

I wondered what it would look like--and smell like--in the spring, but to my surprise, microbial activity had consumed the waste by then (it had sunk to the bottom of the water before it froze), leaving almost completely clear water behind. The solid waste was another matter; it took weeks for it to disappear from the grass next to my front walk, where I disposed of it. (One of my neighbors had two wolf hybrid dogs, who they let run loose--until they rolled in it one day before they returned home...)
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Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
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  #18  
Old 12-03-2017, 02:54 AM
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ghrocketman ghrocketman is offline
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Ah, yessssss....the old canine FECAL-ROLL-AROUND surprise for the neighbors !
Talkin' major Stink-A-ronA !!!
Yeaaaahhhhhhh !
That thar's funneeee and I don't care who ya are !!
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, if you have to ask, you probably aren't
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