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  #11  
Old 12-15-2017, 02:25 AM
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Originally Posted by BEC
Fortunately we have three dimensional tools which we've used since the 777 program and much more recently some kind of VR-like tools we used on the 737 MAX which help with this. But even today sometimes a physical mockup is of amazing value in figuring out if folks can reach places either to put the airplane together in the first place or to fix it later.....

(I guess even though I've been retired for over a year I still feel like saying "we"....for some portions of the 777 and later the 737 Next Gen part of my particular responsibility was getting folks together each week and "flying thru" the 3D and helping them sort out spatial stuff including maintenance access.)
I've seen at least "for public presentation" versions of such computer imagery, which show how human beings--or at least dimensional outlines of their bodies--"fit" in cars, airliner seats, and so forth. But it never hurts, as you wrote, to try out real people in a real, solid model (a mockup), to make sure that limbs can fit into spaces without a person having to be a contortionist.

My only sorrow regarding jetliners--which I'm sure cuts no ice with the accountants, but to me is an aesthetic loss--is that they all fit just one "formula" now (a cylindrical fuselage with moderately-swept wings and tail surfaces, with two wing-mounted high-bypass engines), while T-tails, rear-mounted engines, low-bypass turbofans (I remember *turbojet*-powered airliners, like the Convair 880 and early 707s and DC-8s) and three- and four-engine variations become rarer as those aircraft are withdrawn from service.
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  #12  
Old 12-15-2017, 11:55 AM
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True....but "you canna change the laws of physics".....and when the requirements are similar and what you have to work with is similar the you get basically the same answer.
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  #13  
Old 12-15-2017, 09:20 PM
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True....but "you canna change the laws of physics".....and when the requirements are similar and what you have to work with is similar the you get basically the same answer.
"For similar problems, aerodynamics gives similar answers, whether for communists or for capitalists." (One of the designers of the U.S.S.R.'s Buran Space Shuttle said that, when the idea of their vehicle being a copy of the U.S. Shuttle was brought up.) For hydrocarbon-burning jets, the 737/A300 configuration is the most efficient--with current materials and methods. In the future, electric ducted fans and the flexible composite skin "bird-like" flaps (among other full-scale new aircraft technologies that are now being tested) may enable greater diversity of configurations, perhaps including totally novel ones.
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  #14  
Old 12-15-2017, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
In the future, electric ducted fans and the flexible composite skin "bird-like" flaps (among other full-scale new aircraft technologies that are now being tested) may enable greater diversity of configurations, perhaps including totally novel ones.


I hope so.

Another big driver in the configuration of commercial airplanes (and which is an obstacle to flying wing/blended wing-body configurations) is the requirement to be able to get everyone out of the airplane in 90 seconds with half of the doors inoperative and with while keeping them far enough from engines that might still be operating as well as far enough from each other to fairly evenly split up the escaping traffic. That drives where the doors are and how big they are among other things. And of course those doors are openings in the pressure vessel which must not be allowed to open in flight (usually done by making them "plug" doors).

But distributed propulsion and new materials should open up the "design space" some. It will be fun to watch.
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  #15  
Old 12-15-2017, 11:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEC
I hope so.

Another big driver in the configuration of commercial airplanes (and which is an obstacle to flying wing/blended wing-body configurations) is the requirement to be able to get everyone out of the airplane in 90 seconds with half of the doors inoperative and with while keeping them far enough from engines that might still be operating as well as far enough from each other to fairly evenly split up the escaping traffic. That drives where the doors are and how big they are among other things. And of course those doors are openings in the pressure vessel which must not be allowed to open in flight (usually done by making them "plug" doors).

But distributed propulsion and new materials should open up the "design space" some. It will be fun to watch.
*Nods* I'm a member of T.W.I.T.T. (The Wing Is The Thing, a tailless and flying wing aircraft history, experimentation, and advocacy group, see: http://www.twitt.org/ [flying wing model plans are on their website, too...]), and they've covered the BWB (Blended Wing-Body) research. It has numerous applications (drones, planetary exploration "aerobots," etc.), and the passenger evacuation problem has also been covered in their articles (it's not a show-stopper, but it does make BWB design more complicated and involved, for sure). Also:

Perhaps the closest things to BWB airliners that have flown were Vincent Burnelli's various "quasi-flying wing" aircraft, which (unintentionally) demonstrated almost miraculous crash survivability, because the "wing/fuselage" center section was structurally a box girder. Business jet- and regional jet-size BWB planes might meet the passenger evacuation requirements. Distributed propulsion electric ducted fan airliners with "thrusting/lift-augmenting 'slot' nozzles" (I've seen a NASA CGI video of a proposed BWB cargo plane of this type) look like the Horten brothers' elegant swept flying wings.
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  #16  
Old 12-16-2017, 06:12 PM
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Cars/Trucks are no longer designed/built for serviceability by the "outhouse mechanic" nor will they ever again be.
Too many specialized tools are required and automobiles no longer require service as frequently.

The Porsche. Boxster is the most extreme example of this.
My understanding is that you have to lift the entire body off to change the spark plugs..

My C6 is an example of extremely easy serviceability. Everything is easy.
Easiest car to work on I have ever owned. No joke.
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  #17  
Old 12-17-2017, 04:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
Cars/Trucks are no longer designed/built for serviceability by the "outhouse mechanic" nor will they ever again be.
Too many specialized tools are required and automobiles no longer require service as frequently.

The Porsche. Boxster is the most extreme example of this.
My understanding is that you have to lift the entire body off to change the spark plugs..

My C6 is an example of extremely easy serviceability. Everything is easy.
Easiest car to work on I have ever owned. No joke.
A couple of people--young people, no less!--who live near here have Ford Model T cars, which are very easy to check and work on (the only thing my father disliked about the Model T was that it was hard to *keep* it stopped at intersections without hard, steady pressure on the brakes, as it always wanted to creep forward). The Model A didn't have that problem, and I wouldn't be surprised if today's Model T parts manufacturers, such as J.C. Whitney, fixed that slight flaw in the Model T's braking system.
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http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
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  #18  
Old 12-24-2017, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
Cars/Trucks are no longer designed/built for serviceability by the "outhouse mechanic" nor will they ever again be.
Too many specialized tools are required and automobiles no longer require service as frequently.

The Porsche. Boxster is the most extreme example of this.
My understanding is that you have to lift the entire body off to change the spark plugs..

My C6 is an example of extremely easy serviceability. Everything is easy.
Easiest car to work on I have ever owned. No joke.


Typical friggin' moron engineer's attitude for explaining their sh!tty designs...

"Outhouse' mechanic's hands and range of motion and flexibility is the same as a factory mechanic...

Boxter-- meh... if you've got money to waste on that POS, well, you can $2 grand for a friggin tuneup... a fool and their money are soon parted.

Meh, I don't like the new vehicles period. Too much BS... all show, no go... "all hat and no cows". I'm keeping my 15 year old (newest) vehicles and just fixing them as I need to... and I think my next farm truck will probably be an early-mid 90's diesel...

Later! OL J R
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  #19  
Old 12-24-2017, 01:00 PM
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My car (C6 Corvette) is ALL GO and plenty of show.
Top speed over 190 mph, quarter mile in under 12sec, 0-60 in 4 sec, and handles like a go-cart.
Easy to work on and parts very reasonably priced.
Best of all, only TWO SEATS- NO room for BRATS !!!!
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When in doubt, WHACK the GAS and NEVER touch the brake !!!
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If you are NOT FLYING LOW in the left lane, you need to GET THE #$&@ OUT of it !

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, if you have to ask, you probably aren't
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