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  #1  
Old 03-09-2018, 02:06 PM
clhug clhug is offline
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Default Elmer's Glue-All separates

Not that I want to start another debate about which glue is better for what purpose, but I have a specific question about Elmer's Glue-All. I tried searching several places about this, both general Internet and these forums, and can't find anything specifically relating to this. Just wondering if anyone here knows about this.

Every bottle of Elmer's Glue-All that I have purchased in the last year or two, in any size bottle, from any store, has separated. It sits for a while and when I go to use it, I get out a translucent clear liquid instead of the opaque white. Looking at the contents of the bottle I can kind of make out seeing a separation of the translucent clear liquid on top (not a whole lot, but enough to notice) and the opaque white underneath. I've even tried pouring out that clear portion so I'm down to the opaque white, which works for right then when I need it, but next time I need it some more clear liquid has separated out again.

Can I just use the translucent liquid? Is it just as strong as the opaque white part?

It's too thick in the bottle to try to shake and mix all back up like one would do with separated paint in a can. I guess the other option is to pour the entire thing into a jar to be able to stir, and use a brush or stick or something to apply it. But that seems like it shouldn't be necessary (or they wouldn't sell it in a squeeze bottle).

I'm to the point where it's useless to buy Elmer's Glue-All any longer, unless it's okay to use the clear liquid part.

Otherwise, any recommendations for another white glue replacement?

Where this comes from is that I have been reading other glue threads. I had been using yellow wood glue for pretty much everything (except where a particular glue is explicitly called for). Then I read about how yellow glue shrinks, and leaves the pits in fillets, and causes the body tube to scrunch around motor mounts. So I'm now going to use yellow glue for attaching external parts using the double-glue method (fins, launch lugs, etc.), the Titebond Quick & Thick for fillets, and regular white glue for internal stuff (motor mounts primarily). But I'm really frustrated with the Elmer's Glue-All separation.

Just to clarify, I don't build anything too big. I only build Estes and similar type models.

Thanks much!
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  #2  
Old 03-09-2018, 02:23 PM
astronwolf astronwolf is offline
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Toss out the weird separating glue, and buy yourself a small bottle of Titebond II. Problem solved.
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  #3  
Old 03-09-2018, 07:58 PM
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neil_w neil_w is offline
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Sorry I know nothing about white glue separating.

I think you're generally on the right track, though, with TBII, Quick and Thick, and another glue for installing motor mounts. My biggest problem with using TB2 for motor mounts is its tendency to grab and freeze; that not a good thing to happen when the mount is not yet in the correct position. This is especially bad for rolled cardboard rings, which have a lot of surface area to grab, and less bad (in my experience) with light ply centering rings, which I usually use in my scratchbuilds.

An alternative for motor mounts is epoxy. I often use it for installing (not building, just installing) motor mounts because it doesn't shrink and it lets the mount slide in very smoothly to the desired position... of course then you have to make sure it stays in the position until it sets.

I have a bottle of Glue-All that I frankly haven't touched in quite a long time. I don't remember ever seeing it separate like your describing. My best suggestion would be to contact Elmer's .
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Old 03-10-2018, 01:25 AM
olDave olDave is offline
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clhug---- unscrew the bottle top and stick in the "handle" end of a cheapo paint brush, or also can use a bamboo shishkebab skewer (which we all have among our tools and scratch build materials, right?). Stir to your little heart's content.
Elmers glue has always separated a little if left on the shelf for long, IME. Not a big deal. I usually squirt some out of the bottle and thin it down 1:1 with distilled water before working with it. Which leads me to....

neil----position your MMT assembly into the body/airframe tube DRY until you get it where you want it, *****THEN***** apply a little glue around the outer edge of the aft centering ring. Not accusing you personally, but have seen many modrocs built by many different people that were waaaay over-glued. I have long built mine by inserting the MMT, brushing a little water around the perimeter of the aft CR (using a cheapo water-color-style brush from the dollar store), then brushing ONE or TWO brush-loads of thinned white glue (see above) around that same perimeter. If your parts are properly sized and fitted, this will be plenty of glue. This approach has worked just fine for me for decades, including mounts for D and E motors.
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Old 03-10-2018, 10:12 AM
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luke strawwalker luke strawwalker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astronwolf
Toss out the weird separating glue, and buy yourself a small bottle of Titebond II. Problem solved.


Titebond 2 is a yellow wood glue, which will shrink and cause the "coke bottle effect" on body tubes when installing motor mounts. I've had that problem myself and switched to white glue to actually glue the centering rings to the body tube, but I DO use yellow glue to install the centering rings to the MOTOR tube of the motor mount, because yellow glue has greater heat resistance and retains its strength better than white glue-- so obviously when the motor burns the heat has to work it's way out from the source (burning propellant) though the paper casing, through the tiny air gap between the motor casing and the motor tube of the motor mount, and into the paper motor tube, then through the glue joint to the centering rings. The paper motor cases are an excellent insulator of heat, but the laws of thermodynamics wants to bring the system into equilibrium, so heat travels from the intensely hot burning propellant into the motor casing, and slowly and steadily makes it's way out from there. Once the ejection charge goes off, who cares, basically, but I don't want a glue joint in that close a proximity to the motor casing (and therefore the first to see heat from the motor casing itself) to possibly weaken right as the ejection charge is about to go off... hence why I choose to use yellow glue for that joint, and I've never had a problem because of it (and to be fair, I'm sure many thousands or millions of rockets have been built with white glue in that joint, and not had a problem either, BUT I like the extra insurance. And before anybody says it, "Well, then why not just 1 hour epoxy or something REALLY strong that's basically insensitive to the amount of heat we're talking about", NO thank you-- that's overkill IMHO and not necessary and not worth the extra hassle and aggravation and trouble of mixing and dealing with epoxy.)

Elmers has reformulated their white glue in recent years, and most folks seem to complain or at least comment that it is NOWHERE NEAR AS GOOD as it's been in years past. It's basically a lot more like their 'school glue' which is designed to be perfectly safe for the "glue eaters" in schools, and basically just hold their dinky school projects together long enough for it to get home and maybe live on the refrigerator for a month or so before it gets tossed in the trash or consigned to the attic to rot. IOW it's not a serious "modelers glue" anymore.

If I were you, I'd seek out a better brand of white glue. I think that Titebond makes one, if not Aileene's Tacky Glue is a good one, among others. If you're like me you don't want to waste the Elmer's you still have on hand-- what I'd do is take the cap off, run a bamboo skewer or a metal rod down in there (coat hangar, old launch rod half, etc) and stir it up thoroughly. I wouldn't use the clear liquid nor would I pour it off-- it's obviously part of the glue formulation and if it's separated out, using it isn't going to hold most likely since it's no longer part of the formulation, and pouring it off will only tend to change the formulation and probably make it thicker and thicker to the point it's "snot"...

One thing I do that seems to keep (most) glues fresher, particularly white and yellow glues, is I store them TIP DOWN in a box with all my glues and adhesives... that way the glue doesn't "dry out" in the tip or turn to thick gooey snot that clogs up the tip the next time I need to use it, and if it separates it separates toward the bottom of the bottle (which is stored on top) so the glue itself is down in/around the tip. Any "skin" that forms in the bottle will be near the bottom as well.

Later and hope this helps! OL J R
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Old 03-10-2018, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olDave
clhug---- unscrew the bottle top and stick in the "handle" end of a cheapo paint brush, or also can use a bamboo shishkebab skewer (which we all have among our tools and scratch build materials, right?). Stir to your little heart's content.
Elmers glue has always separated a little if left on the shelf for long, IME. Not a big deal. I usually squirt some out of the bottle and thin it down 1:1 with distilled water before working with it. Which leads me to....

neil----position your MMT assembly into the body/airframe tube DRY until you get it where you want it, *****THEN***** apply a little glue around the outer edge of the aft centering ring. Not accusing you personally, but have seen many modrocs built by many different people that were waaaay over-glued. I have long built mine by inserting the MMT, brushing a little water around the perimeter of the aft CR (using a cheapo water-color-style brush from the dollar store), then brushing ONE or TWO brush-loads of thinned white glue (see above) around that same perimeter. If your parts are properly sized and fitted, this will be plenty of glue. This approach has worked just fine for me for decades, including mounts for D and E motors.


Good point on the "grabbing" problem, particularly with motor mounts. Yellow wood glue is more prone to that problem than white glue, though white glue CAN suffer that effect as well, PARTICULARLY with those narrow motor mounts that use a long sleeve to bridge the motor tube to the body tube (like a BT-20 in a BT-50) that has a lot more surface area. What causes it is when the glue get smeared into a super-thin layer as the centering ring slides into the body tube and essentially "squeegees" the glue super-thin as it slides into the tube. The super-thin layer can essentially "dry" almost instantly, as the moisture in the glue RAPIDLY is wicked away into the paper fibers on the inside wall of the tube and of the centering ring itself.

The solution is to use your handy-dandy bamboo skewer as a glue applicator. Mark the skewer with a magic marker with one end at the top centering ring and mark the skewer at the bottom of the centering ring PLUS the distance you want or need the bottom centering ring recessed into the bottom of the body tube (say, a half inch, or whatever is called for in the instructions. In this case, we'd put the mark 1/2 inch below the bottom centering ring since it will be recessed inside the tube 1/2 inch. Apply a dollop of glue to the skewer, and use the skewer to apply and smear the glue on the inside wall of the body tube, after sliding the skewer in to the proper depth where the mark it even with the back end of the body tube. Make take 2-3 applications or so to work the glue all the way around the body tube, and it doesn't have to be perfect. I then slide the motor mount in halfway, apply a little white glue just inside the back end of the body tube, and then slide the motor mount in the rest of the way to the proper depth in one quick, smooth motion. Then I rotate the tube very slowly for a few moments to make sure any excess glue spreads itself evenly around the circumference of the joint, and set it aside to dry. A thin fillet around the aft centering ring/body tube joint and you're all set.

I personally wouldn't rely on one aft fillet on the aft centering ring to lock the motor mount in place... under thrust this fillet will be in TENSION and prone to tearing away, which would allow the motor mount to shove itself up inside the body tube toward the front of the rocket. Maybe it works, but *I* wouldn't trust that alone. If you want to install the front ring "dry" and then apply a bead of glue inside the aft end of the tube to lock the aft centering ring from above and then fillet it from below, I'd be a lot more convinced that would hold up under thrust, but basically at that point the front centering ring is just "along the for ride" and contributes essentially *nothing* to the strength of the motor mount under thrust... and filleting the aft ring from the back to resist the ejection charge "kick back" would still be a good idea IMHO...

Personally I prefer applying *some* glue to both rings, so they share the load of thrust and ejection. It's easy enough to do without risk of "locking" the motor mount in place prematurely if you use the skewer to apply the forward ring of glue at the proper depth, and install the motor mount quickly and smoothly to the correct depth once the glue is applied.

Later! OL J R
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  #7  
Old 03-10-2018, 02:11 PM
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ghrocketman ghrocketman is offline
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I now use EPOXY exclusively for building motor mounts and for mounting them in the main tube.
Totally solves the "premature grab" issue all too common with white glues and aliphatic resin glues.
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Last edited by ghrocketman : 03-10-2018 at 09:46 PM.
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Old 03-10-2018, 07:12 PM
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Overeasy123 Overeasy123 is offline
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I've longed to address this Glue-All issue myself in a thread titled: Why My Potatoes are Chapped: Separation Anxiety Over My Glue-All's Separation.
I'm just back from my workbench, having checked an old-formula pint bottle of Glue-All that still has an inch and a half of product left in the bottom, and I can confirm that as I poured said product toward my eyeball, every bit of the viscous mass emerged a milky white, even after having sat undisturbed for at least 90 days. And, this is what I've enjoyed for the whole of my years when needing white glue for a project, I grab the Elmer's quart from the cabinet; Bingo. An opaque, white fluid delivered unerringly from the pointy orange plastic screw-tip. Bingo! It's at Perfectly-Viscous Attention; Ready to Dry Clear!
I'm at a loss as to my newer pint bottle's location, but I know that wherever it resides, there's at least a quarter inch of watery-clear disappointment, nigh uselessness, up top; delivered from a grotesque Blade-Tip, no less. Holy Lord. And as I sit here with my Blue Pill tucked in my cheek, I hope that subconsciously I've moved my New Formula Glue-All Pint closer to the trash, and that's the reason I can't find it at the moment, cause I know that this symbol of regression has nothing to do with any Fiber of my Being; nothing to do with anything my ancestors have strived for.

So, after my Inch and a Half's done, Glue-All's never existed.

Last edited by Overeasy123 : 03-11-2018 at 12:35 AM.
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  #9  
Old 03-10-2018, 08:26 PM
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neil_w neil_w is offline
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Well that was the most entertaining thing I've read here in a while. May your glue never separate in the future, but if it does please write about it some more.
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Old 03-10-2018, 08:40 PM
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Overeasy123 Overeasy123 is offline
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Thanks, neil_w. And to Elmer's Glue All? The Double Bird, to Infinity.
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