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  #11  
Old 06-05-2019, 01:48 PM
stefanj stefanj is offline
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Thanks, excellent input!

My original decal sez SA-207, so I'll be using the Excelsior wrap!

I re-brushed the black details this morning. I think I'll use 1/16" black pinstripe to border the black areas. I'm not a steady hand for fine brushwork.
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  #12  
Old 06-05-2019, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbzep
AS-204 (Apollo 1) CSM. Definitely different. The K-29 came out in the 1967 catalog which means it was modeled after Apollo 1. I don't know if the instructions were modified for later models. I am assuming the instructions were to paint the whole SM silver like the K-36 Saturn V.

Edit: I looked at JimZ's. It seems it was modeled after SA-201 (unmanned) going by the introduction date and the SA-201 photo in the instructions, but decals were modified as the years went by. The decal set on JimZ's shows SA-207, which was Skylab 3.





Well, I found something interesting about the Estes decals with the original 'Uprated Saturn 1' kit.

I have an original kit (shipment box post marked September 6, 1968) and the decals (and instruction sheet!) show SA-207 as the mission number!

A scan of the decal is attached.

I looked too at the original instruction page in the kit for placement of the decals, and where the mission decal goes at the bottom of the black tanks on the first stage, the instructions show, in fine print, "SA-207". Again, these are original instruction pages as came with the kit when introduced in 1967.

So...it would seem that from the first releases of Estes kit, they were denoting a 'future mission' of some type.

It would appear then that the decals on JimZ site are, in fact, the ones from the original kit. I have a later, but functionally the same, Estes 'Saturn 1b' kit, but the decals are still sealed in their parts pack and I don't really want to open them.

Stefanj, what mission is denoted on your 1974 decal sheet? Is it also SA-207?

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  #13  
Old 06-05-2019, 02:48 PM
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I looked more at the instructions on JimZ's. The photos show a completed model painted like the SA-201 vehicle with white SM and white corrugated section at the top of the 2nd stage. However, the Estes logo is the more modern version that was used in the 1970 and newer catalogs and has the Subsidiary of Damon nomenclature. The 1969 kit should have an earlier Estes logo and shouldn't have the Damon name on it unless the kit was released after Estes was sold and the company had time to change the logos on the literature/plans. That makes me think that an original kit sold in 1969 may have had different decals and the SA-207 was a revision in both the plans and decals.

After several minutes searching, I found that SA-207 was originally intended to test the LM, but was canceled in 1967 after the Apollo 1 fire. Estes could have set that mission in stone guessing it might fly about the time model was released. OR...the original 1969 release may have been the SA-201 and the plans and decals were revised. Hmmmm.....

I bet Carl researched and knew all this when he released his repro of the kit.



From Astronautics:

1967 August - .

Apollo 207 (cancelled) - . Crew: McDivitt, Schweickart, Scott. Backup Crew: Cernan, Stafford, Young. Payload: CSM-101. Nation: USA. Program: Apollo. Flight: Apollo 207. Spacecraft: Apollo CSM.

Before the Apollo 1 fire, it was planned that McDivitt's crew would conduct the Apollo D mission - a first manned test in earth orbit of the Lunar Module. Separate Saturn IB launches would put Apollo Block II CSM 101 / AS-207 and Lunar Module LM-2 / AS-208 into earth orbit. The crew would then rendezvous and dock with the lunar module and put it through its paces. After the fire, it was decided to launch the mission on a single Saturn V as Apollo 9.
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  #14  
Old 06-05-2019, 02:58 PM
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BTW, the SA-207 Skylab 3 flight had all white tanks, no black ones.

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  #15  
Old 06-05-2019, 03:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbzep
I looked more at the instructions on JimZ's. The photos show a completed model painted like the SA-201 vehicle with white SM and white corrugated section at the top of the 2nd stage. However, the Estes logo is the more modern version that was used in the 1970 and newer catalogs and has the Subsidiary of Damon nomenclature. The 1969 kit should have an earlier Estes logo and shouldn't have the Damon name on it unless the kit was released after Estes was sold and the company had time to change the logos on the literature/plans. That makes me think that an original kit sold in 1969 may have had different decals and the SA-207 was a revision in both the plans and decals.

After several minutes searching, I found that SA-207 was originally intended to test the LM, but was canceled in 1967 after the Apollo 1 fire. Estes could have set that mission in stone guessing it might fly about the time model was released. OR...the original 1969 release may have been the SA-201 and the plans and decals were revised. Hmmmm.....

I bet Carl researched and knew all this when he released his repro of the kit.



From Astronautics:

1967 August - .

Apollo 207 (cancelled) - . Crew: McDivitt, Schweickart, Scott. Backup Crew: Cernan, Stafford, Young. Payload: CSM-101. Nation: USA. Program: Apollo. Flight: Apollo 207. Spacecraft: Apollo CSM.

Before the Apollo 1 fire, it was planned that McDivitt's crew would conduct the Apollo D mission - a first manned test in earth orbit of the Lunar Module. Separate Saturn IB launches would put Apollo Block II CSM 101 / AS-207 and Lunar Module LM-2 / AS-208 into earth orbit. The crew would then rendezvous and dock with the lunar module and put it through its paces. After the fire, it was decided to launch the mission on a single Saturn V as Apollo 9.



The Apollo 207 cancelled mission may in fact be what they were aiming for with the original decals, which I think the ones I posted are original.

That shipment box that contained the kit (the postmark is on the kit box itself) is dated September, 1968, which predates, as I know you probably know, the merger with Damon. I think the instructions and decals are from the original 'Uprated Saturn 1' kit, as originally issued.

Now, since the kit came out originally in 1967, I guess there *could* have been some revisions between then an the 1968 kit I have, but I would tend to think not.

If some really old timers have clarifying info, please let us know, but I think the "207" designation is probably from the original issue of the kit.

Earl
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  #16  
Old 06-05-2019, 03:04 PM
stefanj stefanj is offline
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Yes, SA-207!
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  #17  
Old 06-05-2019, 03:34 PM
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The 1967 and 1968 catalog model shows the SA-201 paint scheme and does not have the SA-20x decal under the UNITED STATES decal. The 1969 catalog model is painted in the SA-205 scheme and does have the SA-20x decal. That still makes me think there was an update at some point. This is an interesting bit of history, one way or the other.

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  #18  
Old 06-05-2019, 05:01 PM
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Yeah, that is interesting.

And what makes it so hard to know one way or the other on some of these historical 'model rocketry' details is that a fair number of catalog models, at least in the first year of issue, tend to feature prototypes of models that are close, but not exactly, like the eventual kits offered for sale.

If one looks at the Centuri Saturn V and 1b in their 1969 catalog, one can tell that the models seen in those photos are more than likely the prototypes developed before the actual kits were manufacured (the corregations, display exhaust nozzles, etc., all have a little bit different look than what you see in the 1971, 72, etc. catalogs).

So, it can be hard to know based on the catalog photos alone. Unfortunately, barring someone at Estes who designed them (I know Bill See did the Estes Saturn V, but I forget who did the 1/70th 1b....someone here knows for sure) who could chime in, we may never know for sure.

But yes, you are right: it makes for fun research to try to figure out these little details!

If someone knows for sure if the decals for the very first 1967 kits was different, please chime in.

Earl
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  #19  
Old 06-05-2019, 05:43 PM
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Gene Street designed it. Thanks again to Carl for the info and to eRockets for keeping the old SEMROC site up.
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  #20  
Old 06-05-2019, 07:39 PM
stefanj stefanj is offline
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Well, I'm going to pretend that this is the Apollo 7 flight, and use the wrap decal! Since I have them, I'll use the scimitar antenna on the SM as well.

I checked through multiple boxes for the replacement decal I thought I'd ordered, but couldn't find it. It looks like Semroc still has the decals for their version on sale, so I'm in luck.

Does the original decal sheet have any collector value?

* * *

I have flown this rocket "naked" (just white paint) twice. 4 x B6-4, and 4 x C6-5. The latter was pretty spectacular! If the field where the July 20th event is held is big enough, I'll repeat that configuration.

I suppose it is possible to use 2 x B6-6 and 2 x C6-5, taking care to arrange them properly.

* * *

I see other differences in the later Saturn 1b markings. Lots of fodder there for scale builders who want something unique to pursue!
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