Yo Bar.... I'd have bought at least 2 sets. Thanks.

Interesting how he seemed to want to talk about other companies. In fact it almost seems as if he wanted to talk about everything BUT Estes. Am I wrong?

A company president who cannot make a decision for his disagreeing minions? Heh heh heh, that certainly is a new one. I can't say I've ever seen that before.

yea, I'm just about done with them. There's definitely a need for moderation, but they just border on the silly.



No, Vern's consulting days at Estes were over in the very early 80's. Barry didn't come on board until 1991.

I know Vern offered to help Mary Roberts with the Estes portion of the Manufacturer's demo at NARAM 33, but that was probably just a friendly gesture.

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Roy
nar12605

Your timeline is a bit off RD,

The transfer from Damon to Nomad and then to TCW happened over a few yearsl, from '89 to '91. Barry came on in late '91. Give him credit, he stabilized the company and made it grow again after Damon's neglect. Cox and a number of little hobby companies were bought from '94 - '97. The '97 catalog was a smorgasbord of the various new acquisitions.

it was 2002 when Barry bought the company. IIRC his brother was involved in both TCW as well as Lincoln Partners (and I think he's one of the two other partners in the current venture)

Going back to the Damon years, Damon bought Hi-Flyer kites and Arrow Crafts and based them in Penrose. If you want to know about Hi-Flyer, I can recommend Jeff Duntemann's web site http://www.duntemann.com . Jeff is a writer/publisher, and I've tried to get him to get in contact with Vern, and maybe offer help as a ghost writer. I know he's been to Penrose to talk to Mary about Hi-Flyer. Vern, if you see this, go check his site out!

Tunick is a puzzling character, I must say.

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Roy
nar12605

I think that the reference to Hi-Flier Kites relates to something that BT must have said at one time (perhaps in the Canon City newspaper article that RD mentioned), indicating that he thought that Estes Industries started out as a kite-making company. Which we all know is not true. It indicates either a misrepresentation or a willful ignorance of the facts of the company and of the industry that it is a part of. That ignorance is just sad if it is true.

Mark

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SAM # 0011

There have been many speculations about the NFPA history that may have started this misunderstanding. This is a possible scenario (based on the "historical documents"

There is a topic in NFPA 1126-A2001-ROP that talks about the definition of Secondary Processing Areas:

3. Secondary Processing Areas.
NFPA 1125 has a number of changes pertaining to enhanced worker safety especially in the secondary processing areas (e.g., those areas where kits are being assembled, areas where additional work is being done on unpackaged motors). These changes were the result of a Rocketry Task Force review of the Quest fire. The review was undertaken by Vern Estes who met with Bill Stine. Both Vern and Bill reported their findings to the Rocketry Task Force at the March 2000 meeting. From these findings additional code language was developed. The debate on these changes to NFPA 1125 will continue at the December 2000 meeting in Tampa, FL

Since Estes was apparently labeling and packaging motors in the same (large occupancy) area as kit assembly, they were probably, rightfully, concerned that the local AHJ could interpret this broadly and require them to make many changes in their operations.
In the same document Mary Roberts, representing Estes Industries, explained her negative vote concerning the "Secondary Processing Area" as such:
EXPLANATION OF NEGATIVE:
ROBERTS: The verbiage in Proposals 1125-49 (2-10.1), 1125-50 (2-10-1.1), 1125-76 (3-8.1), and 1125-77 (3-8.1.1) as they are currently worded will affect only Estes Industries and we already take more than appropriate precautions to protect our employees. The way these proposals are currently worded will allow the AHJ to interpret the code very widely and could place undue burden on our company and our ability to manufacture product. The current wording of proposals 2-10.1, 2-10.1.1, 3-8.1, and 3-8.1.1 confuses and leaves open the limitations of manufacturing and packaging and without further clarity, will leave our company in an untenable situation. Therefore we will be proposing via public comment that manufacturing be defined only as the process of making model and high power rocket engines and that once the engines are manufactured all secondary operations such as packaging be excluded from the definition of manufacturing. Estes invites any and all members of the committee (with the exception of those members directly or indirectly employed by rocketry competitors) to visit our facility and review our operations.

After the proposal was reviewed, the NFPA-1125-A2001-ROC was published. In it, Barry Tunick requested that the "Secondary Processing Area" be removed from the document and "packaging of complete model and high power rocket motors shall not be considered a process." That was approved and the committee added labeling, so it would read: "Labeling or packaging of complete model and high power rocket motors shall not be considered a process." There were other items addressed, but the packaging of completed motors seemed to be the major point of contention.

I am sure Vern and Bill acted in good faith in the aftermath of the Quest fire (and possibly others) to make suggestions to the NFPA concerning engine production safety. Post-processing of engines has the highest potential for accidents to humans and I think the data is there to prove that. The actual pressing of engines is always done with no humans present. My opinion is that there was probably a misunderstanding at the time. Vern and Bill were most likely concerned with any post-processing that could ignite an engine and set off thousands of engines in an area that housed far too many employees which would be disastrous. Barry's idea of post-processing was just packaging completed engines. The final NFPA 1125-2001 shows that all parties were most likely satisfied with the final result. Drilling engines had to be done with no more occupants than necessary and packaging completed engines did not have the restriction.

When I read these documents years ago, I imagined that Barry must have been upset, as I would have been. His comments about 300 million engines with no accidents involving labeling or packaging were convincing. His offer to open his operation up to anyone on the committee (except competitors) to view the safety of his facility and processes was also convincing. I think if this is the item that has had Barry upset all these years, he probably never understood that Vern and Bill were trying to prevent further loss of life, not make life difficult for him.

This is totally my impressions and opinions from a very thin paper trail and may be entirely off-base. In any case, it was some interesting history for me and helps me to understand a little better.

__________________
Carl McLawhorn
NAR#4717 L2
semroc.com

I still think it's very shallow of Barry to make the comment, "Vern and Gleda do not exist" and also seem as though he is bordering on paranoia. We have seen with our own eyes how he handles any view that does not agree with his own. The Estes forum was a prime example.

I can see the potential conflict of interest with Bill, a competitor. But what motive would Vern have to try and foil Barry and Estes? Vern may very well be upset about the direction the company has taken since he left, but I'm sure he carries a fair amount of pride knowing that the Estes name is still around. Your version makes sense , Carl.

I'm about through with TRF as well....WAY over-moderated with total MAMBY-PAMBY moderators and WAAAAY restrictive of what can be posted there.
If a forum must have moderation, this forum has the most reasonable amount of moderation.
The moderators on this website do a GREAT job of just moving postings to the topic they belong under when needed and rarely if EVER lock or delete any postings or threads. That is the way ALL webforums should be PERIOD.

Compared to what is on TRF, I'd rather see what is on Newton's 3rd, which is a total lack of moderation flame-war FREE-FOR-ALL "If ya can't take the heat get outta the kitchen" where idiots are RIGHTFULLY called idiots and much WORSE !
On that website if something looks like a turd and smells like a turd, it RIGHTFULLY so gets called a turd without any regard to any sort of PC crapola. Having ZERO rules is ALWAYS better than too many rules/regulations.

There is one "outdoors" website that I used to frequent when I did a lot of target shooting that was even worse than TRF that I think to this day is moderated by some "holier than thou" PRUDE hack that thought the words "turd, scumbag, and suck" should be punishable by a prison sentence.

__________________
When in doubt, WHACK the GAS and DITCH the brake !!!

Yes, there is such a thing as NORMAL, if you have to ask what is "NORMAL" , you probably aren't !
Failure may not be an OPTION, but it is ALWAYS a POSSIBILITY.
ALL systems are GO for MAYHEM, CHAOS, and HAVOC !

Yes, I know, but I was adding the historical perspective for those that didn't know that there WAS a kite company in the mix at one time! In fact, just before Barry started with the company, they would answer the phone, "This is Estes/Hi-Flyer. How may I help you?"

__________________
Roy
nar12605

And it is certainly better than "Hello, Estes-Cox. Why don't you go take a flying ...!"

Mark

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SAM # 0011

I have to say that I find many reasons to admire Barry Tunick. As a businessman, he is certainly different from the expected norm, but many of the CEO's of large companies that I have met or studied over the years do not fit any particular mold. I grew up wanting to be a part of a large model rocket company and be like the CEO that I most admired, Vern Estes. I sold hundreds of people on my dream and started Semroc in 1968. The rocket part, even the engine aspect, was easy. Keeping more people busy and focused than I was accustomed to was the biggest challenge. Running a company and keeping your employees, stockholders, directors, and your customers all satisfied dwarfed the fun, rocketry related piece. It started out as fun, but working 120 hour weeks with all the pressure from the responsibility of so many people, made me lose sight of the objective; to be like Vern Estes. Seeing him, during that time, sell out to Damon made me rethink my vision. Running a model rocket company was hard work and seeing the space race winding down, made it harder. I think that I was not a good person to be around then. I was probably gruff and had a chip on my shoulder. I blamed everyone else for my problems.

Like many people, I have dreamed of one day "buying Estes" and returning it to its roots. When I run the business model, it becomes painfully obvious that I would have to run it almost the same as Barry runs it today. To keep a company of its size alive, it is necessary to reach the masses. To reach the masses today requires Wal-Mart, Target, and other discount outlets. Cost is more important than innovation and certainly more important that catering to a decreasing market of those that "remember the Golden Age." For that reason, I am happy to watch Barry and the other faithful at Estes Industries do it and am glad I don't have to. For personal reasons, I could never interface with the Chinese and depend on them for my livelihood. I am not sure I could make the decisions Barry makes and has to make all the time to keep Estes Industries going. But we all depend on him to keep it alive for many more years.

Most of his customer base walk into Wal-Mart, buy a starter set, fly the rockets a few times, then leave the hobby. A few will stay in the hobby for a while, buy a few kits from us or our friends and then leave the hobby. A few will stay longer before leaving and even get involved on this forum. Years from now, some will return. Most of those returning will have the Estes of today in their fondest memories and possibly be somewhat interested in the "ancient history" of the hobby.

Hopefully, Semroc and many other small companies will still be around then to provide that history and the gaps that are hard for Estes to fill without losing sight of their real market and goals. We will still be thanking Estes Industries for capturing the masses that we could not reach and providing the easy access to engines that are our lifeblood.

On an even more personal note, I know that Barry, many other current and past Estes employees, and other model rocket pioneers watch these forums with much interest, I also know some of the posts must hurt them and their memories. Barry did reach out to the followers of the forums. He presented his side and shared some of his views. I don't agree with them all and was deeply hurt by some, but he did reach out. That took much more guts than I have! This is a tough group, but it a good group. Some of the best people I have ever met frequent this place. I am sure when Estes employees, including Barry, actually meet these people at a national event, they will be surprised by their warmth.

Perceptions can be much more powerful than mere facts. We, as posters on this forum, are a reflection of the past, present, and future of model rocketry. I hope most of the perceptions of the visitors sharing our experiences here are positive.

__________________
Carl McLawhorn
NAR#4717 L2
semroc.com