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  #21  
Old 05-01-2009, 06:16 PM
ghrocketman's Avatar
ghrocketman ghrocketman is offline
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I see anything slated to be scrapped as FAIR GAME in my book.
Taking items from a dumpster is NEVER stealing as far as I'm concerned, rather it is RESOURCEFUL PROCUREMENT !
Better in someone's hands who appreciates it than destroyed, ALWAYS !!!
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  #22  
Old 05-01-2009, 07:20 PM
lurker01 lurker01 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDorffler
Bob - no, I'm not surprised at all. And obviously you have intimate knowledge of where many of these items were kept or stored and were taken from. One thing I would like to pass on to the guys who have 'private collections' of Estes rockets, prototypes, photos, films, etc., is that in all likelyhood your collection contains one or more of these pilfered items. No employee has ever had the right or been given permission to take home items such as the original photo models, or kit files, or our large collection of scale data. Yet today the original models such as the Mars Lander or Spaceman, or the original Interceptor which were kept in the photo studio are now all gone. Most of the printing plates that printed the original instructions are all gone, and our massive set of scale files have been decimated. All of which has upset me greatly for some time.


Mike,

This is an interesting issue you bring up, but I do want to offer counter-point:

1) As an employee of Estes Industries, anything you created, was the property of Estes Industries and not your own personal items?

2) Estes as the owners could do anything they wanted with the intellectual properties that you and others created for them?

3)Once something is thrown 'away', when does it become fair game?

My understanding of the story goes something like this (please correct my mistakes!!!):

Hasbro or Toybiz (?) sold Estes to Barry and crew. For what ever reason, the old Estes home had to go. The Estes home was used for storage and R&D work within? Barry sold the house to some private third party on the condition that the house was picked up from its foundation and moved far away (many miles). In the process of moving the house, Barry didn't want the contents and the owner just decided to put most of it in the trash.

Am I on target so far?

Before the contents of the house went into the trash, a few daring Estes employees went in and salvaged what ever they could and/or had the chance to salvage. I believe Mike Hellmound (sp?) was involved in this and did get some of the old pictures and markets and actually had them on display at the NARAM 50-ORR meeting; I think I read and saw pictures of Mike in a magazine; Launch maybe.

The majority of files and paperwork is now in some Penrose CO landfill and the house was moved to non-Estes property.

So, can one say that any items that survived the 'Great Purge' are actually 'Pilfered' when Estes/Barry had released their rights to the intellectual property? I am NOT a lawyer nor do I play one on T.V., but somewhere between Trashcan and Landfill, Estes should lose its rights at some point.

Actually Mike and others here, I HAVE tried 'giving' some of the items in my collection back [sic] to Estes, but I was told by Marry Roberts in 2004, "Estes isn't interested in anyway in items from the original company".

I was OFFERING THEM FOR FREE, not Ebay prices! No longer free as my philanthropist ways have gone the way of our economy; I now have to make a living selling old Estes nose cones and Cinerocs!

But seriously, what happens if someone uses an old photo of you in a book without consulting you first? Do you get a lawyer and sue them? Do you even have the right to sue? Could Estes turn around and say that they want to put a halt to Semroc and others who clone kits? You mentioned the original instructions are no more, so who owns the rights to the instructions:

Vern Estes? Well he sold the company to Damon. Mike Dorfler? Well he was an employee for Estes who owned the rights to anything that Mike Dorfler, Gene Street, et. al., made for Estes. Damon? Well they sold the company to ... see where I am going with this.

Does Barry Tunic legally have a right to all Estes intellectual property past and present?

I would think that a book project that looks at the whole of model rocketry might be impossible given ALL the hands that have had a part in this hobby and all the hundreds of inventor, creators, and owners involved in the creation of the hobby.

Mike, don't take what I am saying as a personal attack, as there is only one rocketeer/racketeer I actually hate in the hobby and he is NOT you!

Personal copy right laws I believe are 57 years, so do we have to wait until 2026 before we can see your original Cineroc items published? That would suck as I am very old in the tooth and might not hold out that long

Just curious Bob
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  #23  
Old 05-01-2009, 07:38 PM
MDorffler MDorffler is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lurker01
Mike,

This is an interesting issue you bring up, but I do want to offer counter-point:

1) As an employee of Estes Industries, anything you created, was the property of Estes Industries and not your own personal items?

2) Estes as the owners could do anything they wanted with the intellectual properties that you and others created for them?

3)Once something is thrown 'away', when does it become fair game?

My understanding of the story goes something like this (please correct my mistakes!!!):

Hasbro or Toybiz (?) sold Estes to Barry and crew. For what ever reason, the old Estes home had to go. The Estes home was used for storage and R&D work within? Barry sold the house to some private third party on the condition that the house was picked up from its foundation and moved far away (many miles). In the process of moving the house, Barry didn't want the contents and the owner just decided to put most of it in the trash.

Am I on target so far?

Before the contents of the house went into the trash, a few daring Estes employees went in and salvaged what ever they could and/or had the chance to salvage. I believe Mike Hellmound (sp?) was involved in this and did get some of the old pictures and markets and actually had them on display at the NARAM 50-ORR meeting; I think I read and saw pictures of Mike in a magazine; Launch maybe.

The majority of files and paperwork is now in some Penrose CO landfill and the house was moved to non-Estes property.

So, can one say that any items that survived the 'Great Purge' are actually 'Pilfered' when Estes/Barry had released their rights to the intellectual property? I am NOT a lawyer nor do I play one on T.V., but somewhere between Trashcan and Landfill, Estes should lose its rights at some point.

Actually Mike and others here, I HAVE tried 'giving' some of the items in my collection back [sic] to Estes, but I was told by Marry Roberts in 2004, "Estes isn't interested in anyway in items from the original company".

I was OFFERING THEM FOR FREE, not Ebay prices! No longer free as my philanthropist ways have gone the way of our economy; I now have to make a living selling old Estes nose cones and Cinerocs!

But seriously, what happens if someone uses an old photo of you in a book without consulting you first? Do you get a lawyer and sue them? Do you even have the right to sue? Could Estes turn around and say that they want to put a halt to Semroc and others who clone kits? You mentioned the original instructions are no more, so who owns the rights to the instructions:

Vern Estes? Well he sold the company to Damon. Mike Dorfler? Well he was an employee for Estes who owned the rights to anything that Mike Dorfler, Gene Street, et. al., made for Estes. Damon? Well they sold the company to ... see where I am going with this.

Does Barry Tunic legally have a right to all Estes intellectual property past and present?

I would think that a book project that looks at the whole of model rocketry might be impossible given ALL the hands that have had a part in this hobby and all the hundreds of inventor, creators, and owners involved in the creation of the hobby.

Mike, don't take what I am saying as a personal attack, as there is only one rocketeer/racketeer I actually hate in the hobby and he is NOT you!

Personal copy right laws I believe are 57 years, so do we have to wait until 2026 before we can see your original Cineroc items published? That would suck as I am very old in the tooth and might not hold out that long

Just curious Bob


Bob - I give up. If you feel someone taking things from another person's desk without permission is acceptable, then so be it. Call me too moralistic, I personally cannot buy into this way of thinking. MY personal items removed without my permission occured BEFORE the R&D staff was moved from the old house. And the film you say you have marked April 1968 was MY original 'Cineroc' footage which never belonged to nor did I ever transfer ownership to Estes. So your dumptser argument doesn't hold with these items.
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  #24  
Old 05-01-2009, 07:40 PM
MDorffler MDorffler is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
I see anything slated to be scrapped as FAIR GAME in my book.
Taking items from a dumpster is NEVER stealing as far as I'm concerned, rather it is RESOURCEFUL PROCUREMENT !
Better in someone's hands who appreciates it than destroyed, ALWAYS !!!


I absolutely cannot agree that dumpter or office diving by employees on company property is accetable.
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  #25  
Old 05-01-2009, 07:50 PM
lurker01 lurker01 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDorffler
Bob - I give up. If you feel someone taking things from another person's desk without permission is acceptable, then so be it. Call me too moralistic, I personally cannot buy into this way of thinking. MY personal items removed without my permission occured BEFORE the R&D staff was moved from the old house. And the film you say you have marked April 1968 was MY original 'Cineroc' footage which never belonged to nor did I ever transfer ownership to Estes. So your dumptser argument doesn't hold with these items.


Mike,

A guy named, Eric Tamiroff is who you seek. I am looking for him also.

Thieving is wrong. Did you ever inform Estes Security or maybe the Penrose Police of the theft?

Mike Hellmound (Sp?) had quite a few 1960's photos and kits. I don't think he had anything Cineroc related.

On a similar note: Lee Piester used to keep a washer/dryer sized box of every kit that Centuri ever made in the 1960's and early 1970's in the Centuri main building. One night, someone broke in and stole it and ONLY it. I guess one of us has built a time machine and gone back eh?

Bob
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  #26  
Old 05-01-2009, 08:30 PM
Jerry Irvine's Avatar
Jerry Irvine Jerry Irvine is offline
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Estes gave up rights to the objects not to the "rights to reproduce the objects".

Thieving is downright common in rocketry circles. I have had 5+ break-ins myself.

Jerry
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  #27  
Old 05-01-2009, 09:33 PM
MDorffler MDorffler is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Irvine
Estes gave up rights to the objects not to the "rights to reproduce the objects".

Thieving is downright common in rocketry circles. I have had 5+ break-ins myself.

Jerry


It hurts, doesn't it Jerry? People key your new car, intentianlly drive up over the curb into your freshly seeded yard to maliciously destroy it, break into your home and take things from you that have personal meaning. I guess I don't understand why some of us think it's justifiable to take things from others for some obscure excuse. I admit I'm old fashion in the way I think we should treat each other.

We had a rash of vehicle breakins here in Canon City a few weeks ago. People were losing CDs, cash, and whatever else they had in their unlocked cars. The local police put an article in our 'newspaper' blaming we citizens as the primary cause of the thefts because we were leaving our cars unlocked. I would have thought that the thefts should have been blamed on the punks who were actually involved in the thefts. But there I go again, not undertsanding the reality of today's morality.

I have had personal things removed from my work area that were mine, items that didn't belong to the company. And yes, we have had numerous items lifted company wide, not just from my own area as I have explained in other posts. It is not correct for anyone to feel I seem to be trying to draw attention to myself. I am simply trying to point out that numerous items have been taken from Estes that should never have been taken, and the company has has been wronged.

Anyone of you taking a tour today through the plant would naturally be straining to see some of the older rockets on shelves, or in offices, or see the printing presses, or the photo lab, or any of a number of other areas of interest. But the reality is that the tour would be a great disapointment. Beyond the dozen or so models in the foyer display case, the remnants of 40 years of great designs are not to be found anywhere. The models are gone, most of which have been stolen, the printshop is gone, and the photo lab is now used as storage. My point to all of you when I mention this or that my own items have been removed, is to try to share my great sadness that so much of the physical history of Estes no longer exists.

If you the forum members would rather anylize each of my sentances to find something in my words to help promote your own views that I am wrong, then go for it. Afterall, this is a forum meant for open back and forth discussion. But I truly say to all of you I admire all of you for your intregrity, your intellegence, and your collective bond to this hobby we call model rocketry. Sometimes I think some of you would rather try to show me up in one way or another and challenge me that you know as much about Estes history as I do, and again I say if that is what you want to do, then it is perfectly okay with me.

But the issue over the last few post has to do with my personal expression that my personal items as well as the companies have been stolen over time, and I cannot accept any excuse by some forum members as the thefts were somehow justifiable. I'm sorry guys, I do respect your views but on this point I cannot agree.

Let's move on - next question please.
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  #28  
Old 05-01-2009, 10:33 PM
motley16 motley16 is offline
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I have been in this great hobby for quite some time. I enjoy it and thank you as a man for all the great years of model rocketry. I have been reading your posts and feel bad for the things that have happened to you and the estes rocket co. There is no way to get around it a theif is a low life period. The history of estes can not be replaced, it has been stolen from us all. You seem to be a very upstanding man, not many left these days. I admire that. I guess i too am an old school thinker. Thank you for your hard work with a great hobby that i can only hope lives on for years. Help bring back the golden years of model rocketry. Help bring back all those classic kits we loved so. I will enjoy building the classics with my son and hope he to enjoys and gets the fever for the hobby.
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  #29  
Old 05-02-2009, 07:49 AM
jetlag jetlag is offline
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Mike,
Since a lot of (most of) these old rockets and literature and devices were stolen or disappeared for whatever reason, it seems a good idea to ceate a room for these pieces of memorabelia. I think I read somewhere (probably in this forum) a suggestion that Estes create a museum of sorts. I don't remember the answer that was given then, so perhaps you might shed some light on this idea.
Those of us with original items could donate them to the cause for a proper representation of the history of Estes and Centuri. The 'relic room' could be padlocked, etc., except for tours and the like.
At our College of Pharmacy, the Dean wanted a representation of what an old pharmacy would look like on campus. Subsequently, a room was earmarked, glass panels installed, and we built one, using donations from pharmacists and historians from all over the country. It turned out magnificently, and is a stop on tours of the USC Col. of Pharmacy. One can almost 'smell' what an old apothecary shop was like back in the day when nearly all drugs and potions were compounded by the pharmacist.
Any interest?
I know folks from this forum alone could fill up a space with treasured memorabelia from the early years. I imagine volunteers would be plentiful.
I know I would love to help!
Allen
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  #30  
Old 05-02-2009, 10:41 AM
Jerry Irvine's Avatar
Jerry Irvine Jerry Irvine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDorffler
It hurts, doesn't it Jerry?

I have had personal things removed from my work area that were mine, items that didn't belong to the company. I am simply trying to point out that numerous items have been taken from Estes that should never have been taken, and the company has has been wronged.



I agree things being removed from desks and from even dumpsters on private property is wrong. There was a legal ruling that dumpster diving on public property and common areas on multi-tennant private property is legal. Of course selling a house with all its contents is an extreme example, but also legal. That is as far as it goes. Heck, Estes had to get incinerators to prevent some of the more sensitive stuff from getting out as well as destroying hazmat.

I agree the main problem is the loss of historical records and artifacts. Sadly that issue is behind us and done. I really find it interesting a poster here can admit to having an original clear mold Cineroc and the original film and do so without remorse, but I also digress.

I greatly appreciate your willingness to share history. It is enlightening. It gives color to my one visit to Estes where you rushed up, declared with a bit of over-enthusiasm that Kodak was discontinuing 110 film and rushing back. Mary than suggested that perhaps I should be careful with that information. I was publishing a little magazine at the time called California Rocketry magazine. It felt a whole lot like a set-up or prank to me, so I was careful with the information. 110 film was readily available for over a decade thereafter and I flew lots of Astrocam flights.

http://v-serv.com/crp/CRm/10-81/CRm.10-81.01.w.jpg

http://v-serv.com/crp/CRm/10-81/CRm.10-81.05.w.jpg

Jerry



Model rocketry makes a whole bunch of people happy on a truly wholesome basis and you are largely responsible for that. Thank you.
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Exemptions not regulations. Please support DOT treating slow burning solids as not subject to HMR. 2015 NAR President declines!
U.S. Rockets instaship. http://bit.ly/1aca7mA Please buy some rockets.
The O administration believed in tax, spend, borrow, fine, mandate, monologue. D voters will soon be very happy with the election outcome!
Model rocketry is as safe as safe can be defined in human existence. Bow and pray: GH Stine, Orville, Vern, Lee, Lonnie, Carl, etc. No, really.

Last edited by Jerry Irvine : 05-02-2009 at 10:58 AM.
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