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  #1  
Old 10-26-2005, 12:47 PM
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ghrocketman ghrocketman is offline
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Default Estes E30? question / history

Can anyone shed any light on what if anything happened with the Estes E30 engines ?
These (E30-5, E30-7) were listed as reccommended engines for the 1990's Pro Series Terrier/Sandhawk combo rocket along with several D12 and E15's.
I know the story of the E15 being "kaboom" prone but never saw or heard anything of the E30s....what's the deal here ?
Were these never brought out due to problems with the E15's ?
Does anyone have any samples ?
Would like to add one to my collection.
I assume these were BP motors, as this was before Estes was associated with North Coast/Dark Star.

Incidentally, I have several E15 Estes motors NIP, and whenever I have used them, they performed flawlessly, which is NOT something I can say for my stock of FSI D18/D20/E60/F100 engines.
With exception of the F100, the FSI core-burners have CATOed on me at least 40% of the time.
The F100 has been about 20% kabooms.
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  #2  
Old 10-26-2005, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
Incidentally, I have several E15 Estes motors NIP, and whenever I have used them, they performed flawlessly, which is NOT something I can say for my stock of FSI D18/D20/E60/F100 engines.

What is the date code on your E15's?
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  #3  
Old 10-26-2005, 06:25 PM
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Royatl Royatl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghrocketman
Can anyone shed any light on what if anything happened with the Estes E30 engines ?
These (E30-5, E30-7) were listed as reccommended engines for the 1990's Pro Series Terrier/Sandhawk combo rocket along with several D12 and E15's.
I know the story of the E15 being "kaboom" prone but never saw or heard anything of the E30s....what's the deal here ?
Were these never brought out due to problems with the E15's ?
Does anyone have any samples ?
Would like to add one to my collection.
I assume these were BP motors, as this was before Estes was associated with North Coast/Dark Star.

Incidentally, I have several E15 Estes motors NIP, and whenever I have used them, they performed flawlessly, which is NOT something I can say for my stock of FSI D18/D20/E60/F100 engines.
With exception of the F100, the FSI core-burners have CATOed on me at least 40% of the time.
The F100 has been about 20% kabooms.


Estes had been experimenting with the larger BP motors for a few years before marketing the E15s. Some of those motors found their way into the hands of a few serious flyers as a sort of an alpha test. I've heard of or seen E30's, E40', and F motors all based on 24mm casings. Matt Steele showed one at NARCON 91, though he didn't mention what the average thrust was.

None made it anywhere near to market until Estes felt the market pressure from Aerotech.
I think they were going to make a big commitment into big BP motors before they started working with Scott Dixon of Vulcan and Matt Steele of NCR to make the Dark Stars available.

So, it's possible that they were seriously considering releasing an E30 bp motor, or maybe it was just a misprint on the packaging (as none of the catalog listings mentioned it) of the T/S.
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  #4  
Old 10-26-2005, 08:47 PM
ManofSteele ManofSteele is offline
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It was actually a D44... Ed Brown and Clyde LeStage had made some prototype cored 24mm D motors to see how they would perform before I got to Estes. They worked real nice, but a standard solar igniter would not work in them without lengthening the leads, making it cost-prohibitive to produce in quantity...too much work to produce a new igniter for a limited use motor. They were very impressive to hear in flight, but were down on total impulse.
Matt


Quote:
Originally Posted by Royatl
Estes had been experimenting with the larger BP motors for a few years before marketing the E15s. Some of those motors found their way into the hands of a few serious flyers as a sort of an alpha test. I've heard of or seen E30's, E40', and F motors all based on 24mm casings. Matt Steele showed one at NARCON 91, though he didn't mention what the average thrust was.

None made it anywhere near to market until Estes felt the market pressure from Aerotech.
I think they were going to make a big commitment into big BP motors before they started working with Scott Dixon of Vulcan and Matt Steele of NCR to make the Dark Stars available.

So, it's possible that they were seriously considering releasing an E30 bp motor, or maybe it was just a misprint on the packaging (as none of the catalog listings mentioned it) of the T/S.
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  #5  
Old 10-26-2005, 10:06 PM
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The date code on all my E15's is '10X5'
How does on de-cipher this ?
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  #6  
Old 10-26-2005, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ManofSteele
It was actually a D44 <snip> but a standard solar igniter would not work in them without lengthening the leads, making it cost-prohibitive to produce in quantity
For want of a match the kingdom was lost

I'd give my left u-know-what to be able to buy a D44-0 and gladly wirewrap extensions on my ignitors. I have three 2-stage rockets right now that need more oomph than the D12-0 can muster. I do have some electronic solutions planned, but a D44-0 is so simple.

Doug
One 'o these days, I'm gonna turn an E9-P into a D44-0...
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  #7  
Old 10-26-2005, 10:18 PM
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Royatl Royatl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ManofSteele
It was actually a D44... Ed Brown and Clyde LeStage had made some prototype cored 24mm D motors to see how they would perform before I got to Estes. They worked real nice, but a standard solar igniter would not work in them without lengthening the leads, making it cost-prohibitive to produce in quantity...too much work to produce a new igniter for a limited use motor. They were very impressive to hear in flight, but were down on total impulse.
Matt


Yea, I just looked at the video and the motor I thought was an Estes-made E was an AVI E11.8. You had been talking about some special motors Estes made for Internats and what not. I stopped the camera and when I started it again you had the E motor in your hand. I didn't catch the first part of your remark about it; what I caught was "This is where I think Estes is going...<someone asks question>...yea, it's just a double-length Estes D motor..." which is where I got the idea that it was an Estes motor. It was later that I zoomed in on it and you can see the AVI label.

Question: in that same presentation you had a box of Russian mini-a's that looked to be about the size of TVM's 10.5mm motors (except the nozzles were much larger than his) that you said you were going to submit to NAR S&T. Whatever happened with them?
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  #8  
Old 10-27-2005, 01:03 AM
ManofSteele ManofSteele is offline
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Dennis Kryway (RIP) was going to do the importation for us. He ran into problems (which wasn't a surprise) and he could never get them into the country in enough quantities to sell. They were 10.5mm Russian A motors that were very similar to what Apogee ended up making, with -4 and -6 delays. I think I still have a few in my collection. Nice engines, very well made.
Matt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Royatl

Question: in that same presentation you had a box of Russian mini-a's that looked to be about the size of TVM's 10.5mm motors (except the nozzles were much larger than his) that you said you were going to submit to NAR S&T. Whatever happened with them?
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  #9  
Old 10-27-2005, 01:06 AM
ManofSteele ManofSteele is offline
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I don't think there was enough web thickness to do a booster version of the D44. I know that there were none made up. I don't remember what the delays were made up - maybe Mike Hellmund would know.

We looked at using the NCR igniter for the engine, but we never got the cost down low enough to go in a BP motor pack.

Matt

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Sams
For want of a match the kingdom was lost

I'd give my left u-know-what to be able to buy a D44-0 and gladly wirewrap extensions on my ignitors. I have three 2-stage rockets right now that need more oomph than the D12-0 can muster. I do have some electronic solutions planned, but a D44-0 is so simple.

Doug
One 'o these days, I'm gonna turn an E9-P into a D44-0...
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  #10  
Old 10-27-2005, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ManofSteele
I don't think there was enough web thickness to do a booster version of the D44. I know that there were none made up. I don't remember what the delays were made up - maybe Mike Hellmund would know.
Thanks for the reply, Matt.

I've heard that, generally speaking, extra propellant was rammed to allow for that. But I've also heard contradicting info that that is not done.

Either way, it doesn't (er..didn't) have to be a D44. Just a fast burn, heavy lift, 24mm booster motor. Sort of the 24mm version of the B14-0. It could be a C2x-0 or C3x. Or a D or maybe even a baby E. Something in the range of 10 to 20+ Ns will work perfectly.

...

I know we can't go backwards. While we all lament the loss of the B14 and many others, history shows that those who try to resurrect the defunct often lose big $$$. What does work is to do new spins on old ideas, which is what a high thrust D booster would be.

I can't help but wonder if Quest's new motor might be a catalyst for Estes to try something different. While they can't match the 18mm form factor [in a D motor], they could certainly promote the booster angle as a differentiating feature.

Doug
Gotta get that staging staging timer built to I can quit worrying about this stuff....

Last edited by Doug Sams : 10-27-2005 at 10:40 AM.
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