no mention of "NOMAD" ?

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-Fred Shecter NAR 20117 (L2)
Southern California Rocket Association, NAR Section 430

Happy now? (hoping both hotlinks stay valid)

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I love sanding.

I was just trying to add more examples to your list. The Long Shot, Maniac and Eliminator all used the molded one-piece Enerjet 1340 fin can, didn't they? (The LS used two of them.) And therefore, by necessity, they would have had to use Centuri tubes, nose cones and internal components, too. In some cases, Estes kits used Centuri components but listed them with Estes names on their parts lists. Centuri ST-13 became Estes BT-56, Centuri ST-20 became Estes BT-67, etc. And the Viking, Recruiter, Vagabond and Apache-2 weren't Centuri kits that were redesigned and kitted with Estes parts - they were Centuri kits through and through, weren't they? Just with different hang tags and a different kit name and logo on the instruction sheets?

The exchange went the other way, too. Several (but by no means all) of the Centuri kits introduced in the 1980-83 time frame were produced with Estes components. The Centuri Thunder Roc used BT-60, the Centuri Bull Dog used BT-70, etc. The very first Centuri clone that I built a few years ago was the Zebra II. The parts list in the instructions does not contain a single Centuri component; the model is built entirely out of familiar Estes parts. (The instructions themselves look exactly like they were created in the EI art department, too.) Another model, the Centuri Spacemaster, would look right at home in any Estes Industries catalog from that period. I don't know if these and others were created by Estes designers but were eventually sold as Centuri kits, or if Centuri designers simply started using Estes components in the final few years. I suspect that they were the products of Penrose's design team, though.

MarkII

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SAM # 0011

The Estes Viking isn't structurally identical to the Centuri Viking. The original Centuri kit (which was also sold to Scouts as the differently-marked Akela-1) used 0.759" diameter ST-7 tubing, the PNC-76 nose cone, and the fiber fins from the Vector-V kit. The Estes Viking uses 0.736" diameter BT-20 tubing, the plastic nose cone used in the Wizard and Zinger kits (called BNC-20N, I believe), and fiber fins that are similar to--but not identical to--the Centuri Viking's fins.

The heavier Centuri PNC-76 nose cone permitted the Centuri Viking/Akela-1 to fly stably using any configuration of its fiber fins. The lighter BT-20N nose cone of the Estes Viking (which is/was also sold as part of a two-rocket "Launchables" starter set with a black/red decor scheme and called Black Diamond) makes the rocket unstable with "C" motors if the long-chord fin configurations are used, unless a little clay ballast is added to the nose cone.

The Vagabond looked like the Centuri Astro-1 but used 0.976" diameter Estes BT-50 tubing instead of the 1.040" diameter Centuri ST-10 tubing.

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Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
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NAR #54895 SR

OK, so did I get ANYTHING right in my post?

MarkII

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SAM # 0011

Hi MarkII:

Yes, you did. I would agree that all of the examples you listed were inspired/influenced/copied/adapted from earlier Centuri designs. It's just that they were developed from Estes parts, the exception being the Maniac/Eliminator/Long Shot/BT-56 stuff, the fin can clearly being a part sustained from the Centuri days, and BT-56 having its roots in ST-13.

Your examples of the late Centuri kits being developed from Estes parts are also correct.

My earlier note, apart from unexpectedly hi-jacking Blackshire's chronology of the Yankee, was meant only to illuminate Greg's remark about Estes kits that might have incorporated leftover Centuri parts just following the merger (sort of Centuri SPEVs, in a way). The Yankee kit was not one of these (on topic remark), but the others I listed were (off topic remark; apologies to Blackshire). None of this takes anything away from the correctness of your observations.

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John
YORF #003
SAM #004

Spot on but for some slight clarifications concerning the nose. The Estes Viking nose was a plastic, two part PNC-20A from the get go. The Viking kit used the red molded version until its livery changed to the Yellow/Green scheme in 1993, at which point the white nose cone version was substituted.

The Wizard did have a balsa nose for awhile (BNC-20N), and was later changed to the PNC-20A; I've not encountered a Wizard kit with a PNC-20N nose, but then I've not seen every Wizard kit! I believe the Zinger never did have a balsa nose; like the Viking it incorporated the PNC-20A from the start, although it was the white one obviously.

The PNC-20N was a plastic blow molded nose that was used only in a small group of kits, and so is kind of rare. It was last used in #0846 Eclipse, and as a side note I'll add that an interesting thing about the Eclipse is that it managed to incorporate all 3 versions of the "generic" 20(?) nose: initially released with the BNC-20N, later changed to the PNC-20N, and then finally completing its run with the ubiquitous PNC-20A. One of the few kits I know of that managed to hit for the cycle.

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John
YORF #003
SAM #004

Just a quick photo comparing the two noses. The upper nose is the Estes PNC-20A, and the one in the Centuri Viking kit package is the Centuri PNC-76. While not so evident from the photo, the PNC-76 is longer than its Estes counterpart by about 1/4".

Attached Thumbnails

 

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John
YORF #003
SAM #004

...Which the Moon Mutt now uses. I bought four of them from ehobbies and a set of reproductions of the original water-transfer Estes Viking decals (which are patterned after the Centuri ones) from Excelsior Rocketry to recreate the original mid-1980s Estes Viking.

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Black Shire--Draft horse in human form, model rocketeer, occasional mystic, and writer, see:
http://www.lulu.com/content/paperba...an-form/8075185
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6122050
http://www.lulu.com/product/cd/what...of-2%29/6126511
All of my book proceeds go to the Northcote Heavy Horse Centre www.northcotehorses.com.
NAR #54895 SR

Just a final note on this digression off the main topic, but I was using this list as the source of much of my information. Apparently it needs some correction, then.

MarkII

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SAM # 0011