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  #11  
Old 12-30-2010, 09:16 PM
shockwaveriderz shockwaveriderz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocket Doctor
Terry

Would you have links to these sites?
Thanks

RD



Well VYMOPO and Delta don't have websites......neither does Ultra.....Plus they don't really read/write/speak english well well. I used to communicate with some of them via email translating English to Russian with online translators....They mostly all knew how to read/write Russian.....

here's some typical online hobby shops:

http://www.rcm.cz/e-shop/rakety-rak...-prislusenstvi/

http://www.peckamodel.cz/kategorie/raketove-modely.aspx

B15 and C15 motors from poland:
http://www.modelarstwo.waw.pl/?prod=1428&cat=153

http://www.sklep.modelarnia.pl/inde...atajace-rakiety


http://knihy.cpress.cz/knihy/hobby/...lanu/?DisShop=Y

weco and Polish EMI model rocket engines:
http://www.modelarski.com/modelarst...rakiet,179.html

ZVS Dubnica:

http://www.zvsas.sk/

this site and others can be "translated" with google....

If you look at the titles of the books I posted in another post and do a google search on those terms....you will be able to find czech/slovak/polish/sloveni,etc websites

There is a small market in both West/East Europe for kits/parts and motors. You have to understand that amateur rocketry where people not only made their own motors but made their rocket parts from scratch is still an accepted practice especially in Eastern Europe and Russian/Ukraine.


Vymopo/Delta/Ultra motors have been known to make their way not only to the USA, but also the UK and other western Europe countries, through FAI channels. these "companies" are basically individuals or small groups of people....former military/paramilitary from the Soviet Union daze.....

Caveman Rocketry in the Netherlands sells Polish BP/Composite motors that are small batch made.....


The East Euro countries all have National Aeroclubs that are responsible for their model rocketry:

http://www.lzs-zveza.si/

http://www.komarov.vesolje.net/ This club has been in existence since circa 1969.

The National Aeroclub in the USA is the AMA of the NAA and Spacemodeling is contracted out to the NAR for FAI purposes.





hth

Terry Dean
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Last edited by shockwaveriderz : 12-31-2010 at 07:30 AM.
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  #12  
Old 12-31-2010, 12:14 PM
shockwaveriderz shockwaveriderz is offline
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Here are some "Engine Shots"

Terry Dean
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  #13  
Old 12-31-2010, 12:39 PM
shockwaveriderz shockwaveriderz is offline
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More European Rocket Engine Shots

Terry Dean
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  #14  
Old 01-01-2011, 02:32 AM
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Gus Gus is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerry Irvine
If Estes could export to a european distributor who was literate in hazmat, import/export among EU countries and model rocketry, they could add considerable incremental business. The laws are actually pretty friendly toward consumers and even hazmat as compared to the USA. Estes has a worldwide lock on mass produced consumer rocket motors. They should spread the good news.

Passing out catalogs to contestants at the WSMC clearly does not count.

Jerry

Jerry,

Passing out catalogs to contestants at the WSMC does count, in a big way.

Estes is under new ownership and that ownership is really interested in pursuing new markets.

There were 300 rocketeers from 24 countries at WSMC and Estes was there to learn about foreign rocket markets and to let the world know that Estes is once again interested in pursuing their business. Although there are model rocketeers all over the world, the market model that exists here in the U.S and in a few western European countries doesn't exist most other places. In most of the countries represented at WSMC, contest rocketry is the dominant form of model rocketry. Sport rocketry with mass produced rocket engines and kits just doesn't exist in those places. For that market to exist, Estes will have to create it. And that's no easy task.

Mary Roberts didn't just come to the WSMC for a day or two to hand out goodies. She was in Serbia the whole week, spending 10 - 12 hours a day out on the flying field talking to folks from all over the world. I was really impressed. This new Estes is pursuing a very different business model from its predecessor. The dedicated hobbyist and competitor once again matter to Estes. Its really gratifying.
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  #15  
Old 01-01-2011, 07:45 AM
Rocket Doctor Rocket Doctor is offline
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In my opinion, the previous administrator (BT) didn't want to expand the businees further than our shores.

You would think that after being in business for 52 plus years, Estes would have gone after the European marketplace. But, as we know, the past 19 years have been a mixed bag of support for the hobby.

When you fail to participate in the NAR, support your customers and ignore the advice of those in the know, then, something was WRONG.

But, a new breathe of fresh air has been infused into Estes through Hobbico, and, it's hard to believe that it will be the one year anniversary on January 12th.

Being at the Internats for a week just ins't enough, you need a contact person who lives in the region, knows the hobby, speaks the language and who is dedicated to expanding the hobby into that region.

Also, you need a distributor, know the local laws and speak with the vendors to be successful.

I think one of the major problems is the language barrier. You would need to have your packaging , catalogs etc in the language of the region, and, sometimes that would be hard to do.

I know that Estes did have some of their products in German, I have seen a few, but now alot.

Estes needs someone that is fluant in english and the language of the region, that may lead to several contact persons.

Also, I don't know if the European market has any clubs or organizations such as the NAR.

It seems to me that competition is the numnber one goal of European rocketry and hopefully that can change to the model rocketry that we have all come to know here in the US.

I also think that more can be done on the home front to get more involved in the hobby. As we found out with the Golden Scout program, there was a huge segment in the middle of the country that didn't particpate for whatever reason.

And, many municipalities and schools are cracking down on the use of public property, and, as we all know, without launch sites the hobby would be null and void.

Hopefully 2011 will bring changes for all of us as far as regulations, product availability and inovations.

Happy New year to all.
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  #16  
Old 01-01-2011, 12:33 PM
shockwaveriderz shockwaveriderz is offline
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I personally don't think their is that much market in Europe, Russian and the Ukraine. Politics played the major role until the Berlin Wall fell in 1991. I'm sure an argument can be made that since circa 1991 Estes has had a minimal presence in these countries.

While sport model rocketry may be ubiquitous here in the USA, in these countries sport model rocketry revolves around competition model rocketry of the FAI type. That's the major emphasis over there. FAI competition model rocketry doesn't lend itself to mass marketing and mass production. The entire FAI model rocketry hobby is based on individuals making their own specialized rockets and using specialized engines also home made, supported by individual(s) cottage/hobby businesses.


I'm not saying Estes couldn't grow America type sport hobby rocketry in these places. It would just be difficult. Toys are toys. You can only have so many toys. Estes could make more money just by releasing a B14 here in the US market.......or composite DEF motors.....or a superscale lineup ..or....




Read this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/29/b...bal/29euro.html


and explain to me why anybody would invest in Europe these days?

this is just viewpoint..I could be wrong.


Terry Dean
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Last edited by shockwaveriderz : 01-01-2011 at 01:00 PM.
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  #17  
Old 01-01-2011, 02:39 PM
Jerry Irvine's Avatar
Jerry Irvine Jerry Irvine is offline
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In my view our market was developed by good old fashioned mass mailings and salesmanship at boutique retail. The foreign motors are far more boutique than that. Estes is a mass-manufacturer and the only barrier to immediate entry is a waiver to allow an English only product with "minimal lead" to enter without delay. Maybe charge a 3% entry tax, or not.

In order to grow this market three vague things have to happen. Barriers to entry and discharge have to be substantially lowered. This depends on the continued proliferation of a safety code.

Freight and shipping have to be "generally allowed in the supply chain". Estes can ship to Pacific Distributors and I can ship to grandma my latest creation for her to go fly. If she can get off her iPad long enough.

Margin respect. Brick and mortar must have at least a 30% net margin. Discounters lower the value and need short discount but still offer the needed service without restrictions.

That policy compresses the discount losses while keeping the net margin.

The main part of that internet dealers will care about, is the reshippability layer.

Jerry 2011
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  #18  
Old 01-01-2011, 09:03 PM
Jerry Irvine's Avatar
Jerry Irvine Jerry Irvine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shockwaveriderz
explain to me why anybody would invest in Europe these days?
They need to sell to Europe, not invest in it. The fact it would be a regional novelty brand means pent-up demand would be high initially. The real measure of success is sell-through and that will take years to build up.

Hey, the regs are far better than CA, 30-40% of Estes market.

Jerry
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  #19  
Old 01-01-2011, 09:19 PM
Rocket Doctor Rocket Doctor is offline
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How many fellow rocketeers would you say are in the European marketplace?

Also, if was mentioned that there would be a market for B14 motors there, what's your take on this?

And, why do you think that the interest is so different in this marketplace compared to ours?

As mentioned previously, they are competitors and not hobbyists.
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  #20  
Old 01-01-2011, 11:03 PM
ManofSteele ManofSteele is offline
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Actually, Barry did make a real effort to reach out to the European market. Barry, Mike Helmund and I traveled to the Nurenbuerg Toy Fair in 1994, IIRC. It was a big point of emphasis for a number of years. But it is a hard market to penetrate.

One thing we take for granted in the US is NASA and the space program, from John Glenn and the Mercury program all the way through the shuttle. There really is no big, visible, European equivalent. As a result, the hobby is virtually unknown, and there is not the awareness of space that we, as Americans, take for granted. There is no real interest, as there is in the States.

In addition, regulations are complex, and the urban density make it difficult to buy and fly rockets.

It is a tough market to build, and frankly, it was not very profitable, despite a good effort. I doubt that the market situation is much better today.

Matt
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