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Old 03-30-2011, 03:46 PM
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Default Saturn Studies Summary--Large Launch Vehicles System Oct.1961

I've been updating and summarizing some studies I've downloaded off NTRS courtesy mostly of links from nasaspaceflight.com forums. They are often long (the study summarized below is 857 pages!) and contain massive amounts of mineutia, but there are TONS of interesting data in there for those willing to look for it.

The following is my summary of the study with snips of relevant drawings and information. Hopefully it will be of use to those interested in Saturn Vehicle history and scale modeling. I plan to go through all the studies I have on my hard drive and summarize them and post those summaries here over time...

More to come! OL JR
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Old 03-30-2011, 03:47 PM
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Here is the first installment... the summary itself. Enjoy! OL JR
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Old 03-30-2011, 03:57 PM
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First pic is of the C-3 vehicle as proposed in this study-- 30 foot diameter, 2 F-1 engines peripherally mounted, 4 J-2 second stage, LR-115 (became RL-10) or single J-2 third stage 18 feet 4 inches in diameter...

http://www.oldrocketforum.com/attac...tid=23392&stc=1


Second pic is a closeup of the first stage showing the propellant line routing

http://www.oldrocketforum.com/attac...tid=23393&stc=1

Third pic is the "orbital launch vehicle" concept using integral tanks (common bulkhead tanks). This "OLV" was to be assembled in orbit from 5 launches of components on the C-3 vehicle, and then launched toward the moon from LEO (low earth orbit). Note the Apollo payload of the time was the direct descent model where the Apollo capsule would land on the moon on top of a lunar descent stage and be launched back to Earth using a lunar ascent stage under the Apollo capsule...

http://www.oldrocketforum.com/attac...tid=23394&stc=1

The fourth pic is the "OLV" using stages consisting of seperate tanks. Common bulkhead tanks were thought to be possible but seperate propellant tanks were also considered as a fallback position should difficulties in making them work crop up.

http://www.oldrocketforum.com/attac...tid=23395&stc=1

The fifth pic is a sideview diagram of the four J-2 engined second stage of the C-3 launcher.


http://www.oldrocketforum.com/attac...tid=23396&stc=1

Some of these pics I've put into paint and 'fixed' some of the poor image quality by going over faded lines and/or adding larger text or dimensions to make them more readable. Enjoy! OL JR
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Old 03-30-2011, 04:01 PM
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The first pic is of the second stage structures.



Second pic is of an interesting design for a C-3 alternative vehicle consisting of a first stage with a cluster of 7 SRMs topped by a second stage with 6 J-2 engines. It would make an interesting model. Note the stage/service module under the CM with it's cluster of LR-115 (RL-10) engines.



Third pic is the Saturn C-4, consisting of a 30 foot diameter first stage with 4 peripherally mounted F-1 engine, a second stage powered by 4 J-2 engines, and a 19 foot diameter single J-2 powered third stage for cargo missions, or a 14 foot diameter J-2 powered stage for the Apollo spacecraft...



The fourth pic is the NOVA C-8 concept... it would have a 48 foot diameter first stage powered by 8 peripherally mounted F-1 engines, a 34 foot diameter second stage powered by an 8 engine cluster of J-2's, and a 26 foot diameter third stage powered by a pair of J-2's. Vehicle height is shown to be 363 feet tall, which is exactly what Saturn V ended up being in lunar configuration!



The fifth pic is another C-8 Nova configuration that was studied (probably later since I don't think this pic came from the same study, but it was in the folder with it...) The second stage uses the familiar 396 inch diameter of the Saturn V's second stage (obviously S-II derived) with a cluster of 8 J-2's (which was also proposed in some Saturn V improvement studies as well along with 6 J-2 clusters) and the third stage shares the common 260 inch diameter of the S-IVB stage, though it's obviously stretched to hold propellant for a pair of J-2 engines. This would be a MUCH more likely NOVA candidate, due to the commonalities with stage sizes used on Saturn V... (tank stretches are relatively easy, but changing diameters requires all new tooling and handling fixtures, essentially a whole new stage!)



Later! OL JR
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Old 03-30-2011, 04:07 PM
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In 1961, the idea of using solid rocket first stages was really being explored in depth. The first pic shows some of the candidate concepts for a first stage consisting of solid rocket motors for a NOVA class vehicle. The first one is for a cluster of 7 15 foot diameter SRMs with 13 foot diameter nozzles which would have stood 82 feet high and been 45 feet in diameter across the widest point. The second is a cluster of 4 17.8 foot diameter SRMs with 15.8 foot diameter nozzles, standing 92.5 feet tall and 42.5 feet in overall diameter. The third is a concept of a 33.8 foot diameter SRM with a 34.1 foot diameter nozzle, standing 130 feet tall... in other words an SRM nearly the third of the size of the entire Saturn V stack and slightly larger in diameter. It was found to be TOTALLY unfeasible due to the extreme weight-- it would have to be segmented and each segment would be about 2 feet in length and still be unbelievably heavy, and even the end segments would have had to been divided up into six gore segments that would have to be bolted together on the launch pad when the engine was stacked. Additionally the propellant burn rates at the time would have had to been about three times faster to even make the motor physically feasible of working! Interesting "blue sky" thinking nonetheless!



The second pic is a solid/liquid vehicle concept consisting of a first stage consisting of a 7 motor cluster of SRMs with a 460 inch overall diameter, topped with a 440 inch diameter second stage using 8 J-2 engines arranged like the Saturn IB-- 4 J-2's clustered in the center and fixed, with the outer 4 J-2's clocked 45 degrees and gimballing for stability and control. No third stage is mentioned, so presumably this would be used to inject very large payloads into LEO, such as space stations, tankers, or spacecraft for deep space missions...



The third pic is of another NOVA vehicle concept... this one using a first stage powered by a cluster of 7 SRMs, topped by a large second stage powered by 4 HUGE LH2 engines in the 1.4 million pound thrust class (M-1's possibly?? This would have been a hydrogen engine about the same thrust class as the F-1). The third stage appears to be powered by a single J-2 engine. This would make a really interesting model as well...



The final pic is a diagram of the C-4 OLV which would have rendezvoused in orbit and docked with additional propulsion stages to go to the moon. Note the Apollo landing stage and ascent stage under the capsule...



This last pic is something of an orphan... the study it came from may (hopefully) turn up as I summarize them and organize... if it does I'll repost it with the relevant summary... This is another NOVA concept that would make an interesting model... it consists of a first stage consisting of a cluster of SIXTEEN! SRMs, 612 inches in diameter! The second stage consists of 4 SRMs in a 360 inch diameter cluster, topped by a third stage that is 360 inches in diameter powered by 6 "S-II" engines (presumably J-2) with a fourth stage that looks like a stretched 260 inch diameter S-IVB stage, powered by a pair of J-2 engines... what a COMPLETE MONSTER of an LV!!



Hope this has been interesting! Later! OL JR




Later! OL JR
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Old 03-30-2011, 04:13 PM
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Very cool stuff!
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Old 03-30-2011, 05:10 PM
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That was like drinking from a waterfall--but a tasty one! Thank you for posting all of those links.

The portions about monster solid motor applications (and their impracticability due to their great masses) explain an article I came across many years ago in an early 1960s issue of "Aviation Week & Space Technology." Aerojet was at that time exploring the concept of strap-on boosters and stages employing giant solid rocket motors; they would be erected on the launch pad *empty* and then be filled with solid propellant--at the launch pad! A new "gel-solid" propellant that Aerojet was working on was hoped to make such motors possible. It was to be pumped into the motor cases from tanker trucks and then be allowed to cure into case-bonded solid propellant. Determining the grain integrity and extracting the mandrels from the huge motors at the pad would have been significant problems, but what a concept for reloadable model rocket motors a gel-solid propellant would be, eh? :-)
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Old 03-30-2011, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshire
That was like drinking from a waterfall--but a tasty one! Thank you for posting all of those links.

The portions about monster solid motor applications (and their impracticability due to their great masses) explain an article I came across many years ago in an early 1960s issue of "Aviation Week & Space Technology." Aerojet was at that time exploring the concept of strap-on boosters and stages employing giant solid rocket motors; they would be erected on the launch pad *empty* and then be filled with solid propellant--at the launch pad! A new "gel-solid" propellant that Aerojet was working on was hoped to make such motors possible. It was to be pumped into the motor cases from tanker trucks and then be allowed to cure into case-bonded solid propellant. Determining the grain integrity and extracting the mandrels from the huge motors at the pad would have been significant problems, but what a concept for reloadable model rocket motors a gel-solid propellant would be, eh? :-)


Interesting...

One of the studies I have yet to summarize (and plan to ASAIC and post here and TRF) is the Saturn V improvement study from 66 IIRC. The study goes into a lot of detail about plans to upgrade Saturn V to be capable of up to 1 million pounds to LEO via various means, including the addition of 4 260 inch SRB's surrounding the Saturn V core vehicle.

Now, having followed the development of the Ares V proposals and their evolution, one thing that became readily apparent was that it was going to need substantial upgrades to the crawlers, crawlerways, pads, and even possibly VAB floor foundations to have the massive weight of it's 5, 5.5, and even 6 segment SRB proposals be supported and moved. The shuttle stack, as it exists right now, basically almost maxes out the crawler and crawlerway capacities due to the two heavy four-segment SRB's. Some proposals for three SRB variants of various designs, even FOUR SRB's surfaced in some discussions, but were COMPLETELY UNREALISTIC from a ground infrastructure point of view...

SO, the question came up of how these massive Saturn V improved vehicles would have been handled. In reading that study, turns out that NASA planned to build a new SRB processing/stacking facility which would have stacked the SRB's ON THE LAUNCH PAD. Basically, the Saturn V would have been rolled to the pad empty, just as they were during the Apollo moon missions. Once the MLP was set up on the pad, the SRB processing/stacking facility would have been carried to the pad and set up like the mobile service tower was during Apollo... Once the SRB PSF was set up around the Saturn V, segments would be individually hauled in (or monolithic SRB's depending on the design) and would be erected and mated to the Saturn V. Once the SRB's were mated to the booster, the SRB PSF would be carried away by the crawler, and the MST moved into position for servicing and checkout. Then the MST would be carried away by the crawler to it's "parking spot" and the rocket would be ready for launch.

There was talk about completing the planned-for Pad 39 C north of 39B, but not much discussion about the acoustic affects of the liftoff of 11 million pound + thrust rockets and how to mitigate the effects on surrounding communities...

later! OL JR
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Old 03-30-2011, 06:29 PM
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There's an illustration of that proposed Saturn V with four solid strap-on motors in the TIME-LIFE book "Man and Space" (it's part of a painting of proposed Nova launch vehicle designs).

I wish Aerojet hadn't closed down their 260" solid motor facility in Florida (not too far from my original home in Miami). Their 260" and 156" modular solid propellant launch vehicles held much promise (there's even a model plan for their "baby" two-stage 260"/156" vehicle in the online Estes "Model Rocket News" plans), but when NASA chose Thiokol's segmented SRB for the Shuttle and the USAF stated that they had no need for Aerojet's huge vehicles, their plans died. Aerojet's last (expended) short-length 260" motor is still sitting in the static test firing pit at their abandoned Florida facility...
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Old 03-30-2011, 06:45 PM
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Here are the plans (see: http://www.spacemodeling.org/JimZ/eirp_36.htm ) for the "260 Space Booster" that would have used the Aerojet 260" motor that was also proposed as a Saturn V strap-on booster. Also, here is the actual 260" motor (see: http://www.astronautix.com/stages/260lidhl.htm ).
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