Decertified Launch of Death!

[chadrog]

It's that time again for the (Bi-annual?) Decertified Launch of Death! Dig out those old motors you've all been hiding and head on down to Certified Peat and Sod this coming Saturday. Don't forget to get your list together and sent off to the NAR for approval. Instructions to do so can be found here: http://www.nar.org/pdf/Expired%20Motor%20Testing%20Program%20Procedures.pdf
See 'ya Saturday!

[CenturiKid]

Here's the list I submitted:

Cox C6-4
MRC A8-3
Estes A3-6T
Estes B4-6
Estes B8-5

I'll have to dig a bit more to see what other treasures I forgot about in the stockpile :)

I also plan to bring along some vintage launch equipment (Centuri Powr Pad at the very least), to give some vintage motors a proper send off. I sure hope the weather stays nice :)

[chadrog]

All I have are some old FSI D's. I really don't have anything to fly the goofy sized things in, and I think they're decertified for safety reasons, so I can't technically fly them under the NAR program anyway. Need to make a few disposable saucers...

[jetlag]

I have a bunch of B8-5's. Were these good motors back in their day, or were these prone to failure?
Just curious...

Allen

[tbzep]

All I have are some old FSI D's. I really don't have anything to fly the goofy sized things in, and I think they're decertified for safety reasons, so I can't technically fly them under the NAR program anyway. Need to make a few disposable saucers...
A little tape and they will fit in a 24mm bird....or....I hollowed out an old 24mm motor casing and peeled an inside layer of paper out of it to make an adapter. I then friction fit the motor in the adapter and the adapter just clicks into the motor mount/retainer hook. It leaves the FSI motor sticking out the back, but it's no big deal on a stable rocket.

Got any rough looking rockets that you just can't seem to lose even if you want to? That would be perfect for the old FSI motors. I've got a ratty looking old Big Bertha that I fly on windy days, fly with suspect motors, fly in tree infested small school yard situations where I just know it will hang up, yet it always comes back. The perfect FSI motor eater. :cool:

[AstronMike]

Here's the list I submitted:

Cox C6-4


Hey, you gotta keep those C6-4's and send 'em to good ole Fred, who can put them to good use when he can't decide between a C6-3 and C6-5. Just use a little Priority Mail box, and don't forget to write "Model Aircraft Parts" on it!! :chuckle:

[ghrocketman]

B8-5's were great; I never had one cato and I flew a lot of them once B14 supplies dried up.
I think the last few batches of B14's produced by Estes were really B8's anyway with a pressed in shallow core instead of a deep drilled core.

I still have new packs of B8-5's, B8-7's, and B8-0's. Never had any of the Centuri-only B8-3's.

Estes should have kept the B8-5 around and dumped the B4-4 as there is NOTHING a B4-4 can do that the B6-4 can't do better. Opposite for the B4-6; Estes should have kept THAT one and dumped the B6-6 as light models and staged models will fly higher on the longer sustained thrust of the B4-6.

Having both the B4-4 and B6-4 in the current lineup makes NO sense.

[ghrocketman]

Fred would probably have a conniption/hissy fit if shipped to him and the 'shipment kops' would be called for sure...

[mycrofte]

I never did understand the B4-4 anyway! They really don't have enough power to launch anything that would require that kind of delay. Unless you are only using them for a return to contest or something...

[chadrog]

A little tape and they will fit in a 24mm bird....or....I hollowed out an old 24mm motor casing and peeled an inside layer of paper out of it to make an adapter. I then friction fit the motor in the adapter and the adapter just clicks into the motor mount/retainer hook. It leaves the FSI motor sticking out the back, but it's no big deal on a stable rocket.

Got any rough looking rockets that you just can't seem to lose even if you want to? That would be perfect for the old FSI motors. I've got a ratty looking old Big Bertha that I fly on windy days, fly with suspect motors, fly in tree infested small school yard situations where I just know it will hang up, yet it always comes back. The perfect FSI motor eater. :cool:
Good ideas there, the extra reinforcement might help keep them from exploding as well! :D

[Bill]

I never did understand the B4-4 anyway! They really don't have enough power to launch anything that would require that kind of delay. Unless you are only using them for a return to contest or something...


There are only two situations when I would suggest a B4-4 instead of a B6-4:

Upper stage motor in a draggy rocket - the larger nozzle makes the motor easier to ignite
Lightly built glider


Surely someone must be buying them.


Bill

[tbzep]

I never did understand the B4-4 anyway! They really don't have enough power to launch anything that would require that kind of delay. Unless you are only using them for a return to contest or something...

I've flown the B4-4 in medium sized rockets with good success. Medium as in smaller than a Bertha....Cherokee D or Nike-X sized for instance. For that matter, I've flown it in Berthas with no ill effects too, but I generally fly in calm winds late in the evening. It would probably tip off in a breeze.

The B4-x actually has a higher measured max thrust (0.61N higher) than the B6-x, but tapers off much quicker. It's a little easier to get in-flight photos with it, as the thrust spike tapers before it leaves the rod. Slower liftoff means less blur and it's easier to keep in the camera frame.

[Bob H]

Got any rough looking rockets that you just can't seem to lose even if you want to? That is almost guaranteed to have a good motor put in it. One of the guys in the club had this beatup old rocket that he used for any questionable motors and it kept on surviving.

I had a tube of Estes D13-5's that I burned in the old motor program. Knowing that they were "iffy" at best, they did not get used in pristeen rockets but they went into half decent condition rockets and the first 2 out of that tube catoed, destroying my rockets.

I gave the third one away to be used in the old "beater" and, of course, it had a perfect flight.

[Sather]

Just a quick reminder... in addition to the April launch being the opportunity to cato your favorite rocket that lives on a shelf with your favorite motor that lives in a drawer, the April sod field is traditionally the Steve Chester Memorial Spring Cleaning Swap Meet, so sweep the basement floor and bring out those extra unused parts to trade or give away. This will be the 4th anniversary of Steve moving away. I still fly his Estes Corkscrew.

Steve, if you're still out there, thanks!

Sather

[chadrog]

And we were all scared of the DE-certified motors, when it was the CERTIFIED motors we should have been running from today! The couple B14's I saw today looked great, I'll let Rex and Russ tell you about the F50,000 and the E9-20...
Pictures are on the way Rex.

[Rex R]

went to fly my Jayhawk today. rocket prepped, check. prep a nice (presumably) new Estes F50-6t according to the instructions(using a sonic igniter too), check. start count down, press the red button at zero. we heard a small pop from the igniter...and a much louder pop from the motor. my jayhawk will never be quite the same again.
mess report filed, and estes notified of the cato. kinda puts a damper on ones day when this happens first thing
rex

[chadrog]

went to fly my Jayhawk today. rocket prepped, check. prep a nice (presumably) new Estes F50-6t according to the instructions(using a sonic igniter too), check. start count down, press the red button at zero. we heard a small pop from the igniter...and a much louder pop from the motor. my jayhawk will never be quite the same again.
mess report filed, and estes notified of the cato. kinda puts a damper on ones day when this happens first thing
rex
Maybe it's a good thing we had some other excitement to take your mind off it, Russ?

[Rex R]

perhaps the next time I decide to try out an SU motor, I should try it in my wildchild...would drive tim nuts wondering how I manged to destroy it :).
rex

[ghrocketman]

Ouch !
That's a real bummer on that nice Jayhawk.

[jetlag]

I would not have expected a brand new motor from Estes to CATO that way. Maybe the shipment heat cycled when it was shipped from Aerotech to Estes to whomever the distributor was. Poor publicity for the new line of motors so exorbitantly priced to begin with...
Seems unusual to me.
Aerotech or Estes owes you a new Jayhawk, though, I would think.

Allen

[Rex R]

perhaps...but I'm not holding my breath waiting.

[ghrocketman]

Good luck getting any company to replace any OOP kit due to their engines damaging it. Seems like a legal precedent could easily be set here.
"Use our product for it's intended use and if it destroys your rocket you get NOTHING but another motor" seems to be a right they should not be able to reserve. If a product is defective in its intended use and it destroys said object and the device it is designed to propel seems to reason manufacturer should be responsible for everything damaged.

If the kit is OOP and worth $500 on ebay, it should be tuff roxx for the defective motor company, not the purchaser.

[Rex R]

to be clear, my jayhawk kit IS still in production, and Madcow Rocketry is selling them like hot cakes.
Estes has offered me a Nike Smoke(since they don't currently have any jayhawks), since I doubt that I'll be able to think about building another jayhawk for quite some time...I'm gonna accept their offer.
Do I get any awards for the First reported cato :).
rex

[ghrocketman]

Oh ok...I thought that was either an OOP Estes Pro Series or original Centuri Magnumb-D Jayhawk.

[jetlag]

to be clear, my jayhawk kit IS still in production, and Madcow Rocketry is selling them like hot cakes.
Estes has offered me a Nike Smoke(since they don't currently have any jayhawks), since I doubt that I'll be able to think about building another jayhawk for quite some time...I'm gonna accept their offer.
Do I get any awards for the First reported cato :).

Rex


They might pay you to keep quiet about the CATO; "they" would be either Estes or Aerotech.

Doubtful... :rolleyes:

Allen

[ghrocketman]

If a manufacturers gasoline is made incorrectly and causes your car's engine to EXPLODE, the oil company would be liable for the damage it caused; seems same should hold true for a rocket engine/fuel as well.

[Bill]

Good luck getting any company to replace any OOP kit due to their engines damaging it. Seems like a legal precedent could easily be set here.
"Use our product for it's intended use and if it destroys your rocket you get NOTHING but another motor" seems to be a right they should not be able to reserve. If a product is defective in its intended use and it destroys said object and the device it is designed to propel seems to reason manufacturer should be responsible for everything damaged.



Would you manufacture and sell rocket motors with that kind of a sword hanging over your head?

Then why expect Estes, AeroTech or Quest to?

In the world of gh, there is only ex...


Bill

[ghrocketman]

MOST consumer product manufacturers DO in fact make products with that type of 'sword over their head' as you say, so why should rocket engines be any different ?

If the gas tank on an automobile explodes in a crash, the manufacturer does not just get to say "Here's a new gas tank for your smoldering heap of a car and it's crispy occupants, sorry for your luck !"
While this example may be extreme, in principle it is no different.

The standard should be no different for rocket engines, I say. As long as the product is used for it's intended purpose, the customer can reasonably expect it to not DESTROY the device it is intended to be used in.

[sam_midkiff]

MOST consumer product manufacturers DO in fact make products with that type of 'sword over their head' as you say, so why should rocket engines be any different ?

If the gas tank on an automobile explodes in a crash, the manufacturer does not just get to say "Here's a new gas tank for your smoldering heap of a car and it's crispy occupants, sorry for your luck !"
While this example may be extreme, in principle it is no different.

The standard should be no different for rocket engines, I say. As long as the product is used for it's intended purpose, the customer can reasonably expect it to not DESTROY the device it is intended to be used in.

And I'm sure Ford will gladly replace that Model A when the tank explodes in a crash.

Liability of unlimited duration is one of the things that killed airplane manufacturing for general aviation. While it might be possible where liability rules are stable, in a legal environment like what is in the US you have know idea what the cost of liability will be 50 or 100 years down the road. And so you cannot get insurance, and without insurance, you cannot do business.

[Bill]

MOST consumer product manufacturers DO in fact make products with that type of 'sword over their head' as you say, so why should rocket engines be any different ?

If the gas tank on an automobile explodes in a crash, the manufacturer does not just get to say "Here's a new gas tank for your smoldering heap of a car and it's crispy occupants, sorry for your luck !"
While this example may be extreme, in principle it is no different.

The standard should be no different for rocket engines, I say. As long as the product is used for it's intended purpose, the customer can reasonably expect it to not DESTROY the device it is intended to be used in.


Cars catch on fire quite a bit, whether from a crash or a fuel leak. Unless the product can be proved to be defective from the factory, the incident goes into the "stuff happens" category.

If a power surge fries my computer, why doesn't the electric company buy me a new one? That is a better analogy to a rocket motor than anything you put forth.


Bill