Motors or engines? - a mini-blog

[Carl@Semroc]

Deb Martin of Launch Magazine asked me a simple question several weeks ago that for me was not THAT simple. It is more of a journey for me and this is how I seemed to wind up on the road less traveled by.

1959
When I first started making the sugar rockets based on the design by Charles Parkin, Jr. in "The Rocket Manual for Amateurs," I was calling them motors since he never referred to them as engines. All the small commercial rocket motors in the appendix were an interesting aside. The Rock-A-Chute (Type A-4) motor had 1.0 lb thrust for .8 seconds and was 2.5" long and .687" diameter. The Pet at 40.0 lb thrust for 1 second and 4.8" long and 1.5" diameter was the one I really wanted. It was made by Atlantic Research Corp. and I could not find any purchase information. The Rock-A-Chute motor by MMI was in my Boy's Life magazine, but I did not buy from them. I just kept working on the sugar based motors in aluminum tubes with crude nozzles.

1960
When I found a copy of "Rocket Manual for Amateurs" by Bertand Brinley in the local Edward's Drug Store in late 1960, I found a goldmine of projects for rocket motors. It was my first introduction to Newton's Third Law and "reaction motors." It was also my introduction to SAE 1020 steel, flashbulb ignition, burst diaphragms, sandbags, and zinc-sulfur. I had still not heard them called engines.

1961
I was still making emptied CO2 casing motors with zinc-sulfur and doing underground testing, since most of them exploded. I was also learning how to turn deLaval nozzles on the lathe in aluminum (easy) and SAE 1020 bar stock (harder to work with). And I was still calling them motors.

1962
While in 9th grade general science class, I would sit in the auditorium and design nozzles for the latest zinc-sulfur or sugar rocket while Mrs. Finch covered the wide range of totally boring fields of physical and biological science. One day, she started talking about Newton's Laws and I listened instead of designing. She was talking about the one thing that interested me at the time. She was talking about "reaction engines" including jet engines and rocket engines. I knew she was wrong in not calling them jet motors and rocket motors, but it was interesting anyway. I still called them motors. I started ordering zinc dust from Central Rocket Company and they used motors and engines interchangeably.

1963
I got my first Estes catalog in late 1962 or early 1963 and they had Rocket Engines! They had more types of engines than I could even think of uses for. They were small, but they did not explode like most of mine. I kept making the large ones and small "shotgun shell" rockets, but my orders (and letters) to Estes started. I read and re-read those pages about "rocket engine design," never calling them motors again. I did not know why Estes chose engines instead of motors, but I thought that they must be right.

The best mechanic in town, Mr. Beddard, shed some light on the matter. He worked for the Chevrolet dealership and said that he "worked on automobiles powered by engines and his competition across the street worked on cars powered by motors." That clinched it for me. Engines were the top of the line. I knew then why Estes changed the name. Mrs. Finch was right. Why call them jet engines, but rocket motors when they both operate on the same principle.

1965
In the 1965 "Handbook of Model Rocketry" by G. Harry Stine, he referred to them as model rocket engines. The older designation of motor was over. If G. Harry Stine and Vern Estes called them engines, they were engines!

1968
When I started Semroc, we called them model rocket engines, but for a brief time, we also called them propulsion modules. We were perfecting a delay-ejection charge auxiliary package (DECAP) for booster engines. It did not seem to be right to convert a booster engine into a single stage engine, so we changed the designation. When we made our own engines, we developed an "engine machine" to make engines. When we went out of business in 1971, I though engine was the permanent name for model rocket engines.

Fast forward to 1999
When Bruce and I started in high power, I noticed that many people flying at Whitakers were using the older, obsolete term of motor to describe large engines, but kept the term model rocket engines for smaller ones. It became a constant battle of me correcting others and them correcting me, so I call the large ones motors and the small ones engines. I took my Chevrolet in to the shop years ago and Mr. Beddard asked what was wrong with it. I told him the motor did not sound right. He asked me which one, the windshield wiper motor, the heater motor, the starter motor, or the power window motor. I corrected myself by saying the "engine" did not sound right. He said to remember that engines run on fuel and motors run on electricity. Overly simple explanation, but I noticed it worked better than any other explanation I could come up with.

One of the most asked questions we get is, "Will Semroc ever make its own motors again?" I can honestly say that Semroc will never make motors!

[Rocketking]

Great stuff Here!

I still remember my industrial arts teacher (That's shop class, for those who prefer to steer clear of dictionaries & such) in junior high school, made the statement that engines required oxygen to run (or burn, more specifically), and motors did not. Seeing as rocket motors carry their own oxidizer, no oxygen required.

I'll let the experts comment now...

[Rocketflyer]

Good article Carl!!! That was Good!!

Brought back memories, and I still have Capt. Brinley's handbook, priced at $0.75. Much worn, handled and annotated.

Did the Carmel candy and Zn/S stuff. Used Potassium percholrate and asphaltum (fine) and that worked well. Had our dads help with the maching of barstock nozzles counter sunk to make nozzles. By date, I was one year ahead of you in HS. graduated in '65, went into the USAF. Years later, back in, US Army.

Yah, they were called Engines, but I noticed the term motor was in play as well back then. Your Mr. Beddard gave a very good explanation, as did my shop teacher... motors don't use fuel, engines do. Heaven help me if I called a fan motor an engine. AND, a graduated resistor was a potentiometer! (shop 101 and electronics class, Mr Steidel).

I think that it is for simplicity's sake that the term is used interchangably, and we rocketeers know what the other person is talking about. But, to be "Technically" correct, I believe it is engine.

So, the question really is... Will Semroc be making engines again? And while I'm here, howz about some clones of FSI Viking series and SAI Vulcan and Tempest Fugits??? Huh, huh? 8-)

Jack, another "old" rocketeer.

[ghrocketman]

Not all motors run without fuel.....
Ever heard of an outboard MOTOR ?
I will say, I have NEVER heard of an ENGINE that did NOT run on fuel though.
Outboard engine just does not sound right, now does it ????
Where there is a rule, there is usually an exception.
Outboard MOTORS (Mercury, Johnson, Yamaha, Evinrude, etc) certainly need oxygen to run(unless a trolling motor), thus the 'shop' teacher was wrong.
I KNOW if I blocked the air intake to my 150 Merc it most definitely would NOT run !

Engine=Fuel powered
Motor= can be electrically OR fuel powered

[Daniel Runyon]

See, to start with I was calling them engines... then I read The Handbook To Model Rocketry and he said to call them motors. I resisted this strongly because it just doesn't sound as cool as engines, but I found myself tripping up from time to time and calling them motors anyway. You, Carl have restored balance to my personal Universe... I will confidently refer to them as engines from this day forth!

[Chas Russell]

You know, engines! Just like the Solid Rocket Engines on the space shuttle!

And the Space Shuttle Main Motors!

Suppose ATK and Rocketdyne know more than we do?

Motors, durn it, motors....model rocket motors....

Grumble!

Chas

No engines were injured in making this post.

Harrumph!

[tbzep]

You know, engines! Just like the Solid Rocket Engines on the space shuttle!

And the Space Shuttle Main Motors!

Suppose ATK and Rocketdyne know more than we do?

Motors, durn it, motors....model rocket motors....

Grumble!

Chas

No engines were injured in making this post.

Harrumph!

I think that's backwards....

SRB Solid Rocket Booster...often called "solid motors" (as per ATK and NASA)

SSME Space Shuttle Main Engine (as per NASA and Rocketdyne)

[Royatl]

I think that's backwards....

SRB Solid Rocket Booster...often called "solid motors" (as per ATK and NASA)

SSME Space Shuttle Main Engine (as per NASA and Rocketdyne)


Uh... I think Chas was being a teeny bit sarcastic, switching the last terms to make the point.

[barone]

I think that's backwards....

SRB Solid Rocket Booster...often called "solid motors" (as per ATK and NASA)

SSME Space Shuttle Main Engine (as per NASA and Rocketdyne)

I think he was just trying to make a point that the boosters aren't called engines and the engines not called a motor.

Now to show the interchangeability of the term....Fliskits site list engine mounts but list the size by motor type... BMS has Engine hooks, motor tubes, and engine blocks....Apogee calls the motors motors but refers to them in the text as engines....

We all know what everyone is talking about........but I grew up with the same description .......if it runs off electricity, it's a motor......otherwise, it's an engine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine

[tbzep]

We all know what everyone is talking about........but I grew up with the same description .......if it runs off electricity, it's a motor......otherwise, it's an engine.

Even though the engine that pulls the train is using electric motors. ;)

[Daniel Runyon]

From The Handbook To Model Rocketry:

Some people call it a model rocket engine, but there is a subtle distinction between a motor and an engine. A motor is defined as something that imparts motion. An engine is defined as a machine that converts energy into mechanical motion. A model rocket motor is truly a motor. Technically, it is a small reaction device for converting the energy of high temperature, high pressure gas into motive power without the use of gears, cams, linkages, pistons, turbines, ect.

I still think engines just sounds cooler... more "realistic". The little glued together dowels on top of my Mercury Redstone aren't really an escape tower either, but that's what I call it.

[tbzep]

From The Handbook To Model Rocketry:



I still think engines just sounds cooler... more "realistic". The little glued together dowels on top of my Mercury Redstone aren't really an escape tower either, but that's what I call it.

You didn't escape reality for a while when you were building or flying it? ;)

[Daniel Runyon]

You didn't escape reality for a while when you were building or flying it? ;)

To some degree I am always on the run from reality... like, really! :D

[johnnwwa]

Even though the engine that pulls the train is using electric motors. ;)

Not to date myself :)
But I remember steam engines fired by coal powered by steam.
I never called them a steam motor. :D

So what is the most correct answer , in regards to Engine or Motor ?

Seems to me this question could go on forever.

Thanks Carl for the history lesson.


Bar
John

[Ltvscout]

So what is the most correct answer , in regards to Engine or Motor ?

Seems to me this question could go on forever.
The question is, what came first? The chicken or the egg?

:D

[JRThro]

The question is, what came first? The chicken or the egg?

:D
The egg. But that's not important right now.

[Chas Russell]

dwrunyon noted:

"To some degree I am always on the run from reality... like, really! "

Right there with you! I tried reality once, didn't like it.

BTW, yes I was trying to be sarcastic about switching motor and engine in reference to the shace sputtle (old joke with my daughter). To me, solids are always motors and liquids are engines due to the mechanical nature of the beasts.

Great irony in the manufacturers mixing the two.

Chas

[Rocketflyer]

Even though the engine that pulls the train is using electric motors. ;)



ROLFLMAO!!! You had to say that right? Oh geeze that was funny 8-)

[PaulK]

Even though the engine that pulls the train is using electric motors. ;)The electric motors are powered by generators turned by diesel engines. :( A series hybrid propulsion unit. :eek:

[tbzep]

The electric motors are powered by generators turned by diesel engines. :( A series hybrid propulsion unit. :eek:

And those diesel engines have electric starter motors. ;)

[Carl@Semroc]

From the Handbook of Model Rocketry
Some people call it a model rocket engine, but there is a subtle distinction between a motor and an engine. A motor is defined as something that imparts motion. An engine is defined as a machine that converts energy into mechanical motion. Thus, a steam engine and an internal combustion engine is definitely an engine. A model rocket motor is truly a motor. Technically, it is a small reaction device for converting the energy of high temperature, high pressure gas into motive power without the use of gears, cams, linkages, pistons, turbines, etc.

There are many kinds of rocket motors. They're usually categorized by the type of propellant they use--liquid propellant or solid propellant-- or by some unique form of energy that they convert into motion--nuclear rockets, ion rockets, nuclear pulse rockets, etc.

I had not seen this before. I have HMR 1st, 2nd, 5th, 6th, and 7th edition. It is not in the 1st and 2nd that I am very familiar with and it is in the latest editions, so it must have "crept" into the 3rd or 4th edition.

I think this reason for calling a rocket engine a rocket motor is ambiguous. The defintion of motor would include engines and anything else that would cause something to move. In fact the American Heritage Dictionary defines motor as 1.Something, such as a machine or an engine, that produces or imparts motion. The next statement that says an internal combustion engine is definitely an engine is one that I agree with completely. A rocket engine is an internal combustion heat engine. It is a continuous internal combustion engine, unlike gasoline engines that are intermittent.

The next paragraph describes different kinds of rocket motors and lumps liquid-fuel engines, solid-fuel engines, ion engines, nuclear engines, etc. into one homogenous group and changes them into liquid-fuel motors, solid-fuel motors, ion motors, and nuclear motors. There is no distinction made between some being motors and others being engines. They are all defined as different kinds of rocket motors.

The statement about gears, cams, linkages, pistons, turbines, etc. implies that a liquid-fuel engine uses these to impart motion so it should be called an engine instead of a motor. But Goddard demonstrated that a liquid-fuel engine did not have to have any of these to work, but using them to deliver the fuel and oxidizer and control the guidance made them work much better. (Goddards 1929 patent called it a liquid-fuel engine, but it did have some electric motors to drive the turbines. ;) )

The more I think about the motor-engine swap in the HMR later editions, the more I wonder whether G. Harry swapped them one time too many. Seeing this in the "bible" helps me understand better how model rocket engines became model rocket motors while I wasn't looking. :D

[Daniel Runyon]

Seeing this in the "bible" helps me understand better how model rocket engines became model rocket motors while I wasn't looking. :D



So this begs the question... does this statement still stand?

I can honestly say that Semroc will never make motors!

I would love to have an alternative source for either engines or motors... whatever one wishes to call them!

[Nuke Rocketeer]

dwrunyon noted:

"To some degree I am always on the run from reality... like, really! "

Right there with you! I tried reality once, didn't like it.

Chas

Reminds me of one of my favorite quotes...."I reject your reality and substitute my own"

Joe W

[James Pierson]

Motor to me has do do with MOTION.
Engine to me has to do with mechanical moving parts for power.

I do not see any mechanicalally moving parts in a rocket Motor :D , just hot moving gases.

An engine can be running in a car yet the car does not have to be in motion, and yet if a motor is running then the object has to be in motion.

dwrunyon
I would love to have an alternative source for either engines or motors... whatever one wishes to call them!

Alternative Title: Propulsion Unit :D .

My 2 cents worth :confused: , JP

James Pierson
NAR# 77907

[tbzep]

Motor to me has do do with MOTION.

I do not see any mechanicalally moving parts in a rocket Motor :D , just hot moving gases.



Liquid fuel rocket motors have turbopumps and other moving parts. ;)

One of the biggest hurdles in early liquid fueled motors was designing and building a reliable cryogenic turbopump for liquid oxygen.

[stantonjtroy]

[QUOTE=tbzep]Liquid fuel rocket motors have turbopumps and other moving parts. ;)

QUOTE]

In a literal sence, all the pumps do is deliver fuel and oxidizer to the combustion chamber more efficiently than gas preasure (i.e. helium) or gravity qualifying them as perifial devices. :p

This has been an ongoing debate within the engineering/ motor mechanic community for decades. :D Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Seriously though, this has been an ongoing argument that I posed to one of my engineering professors( a wise and knowing man of great practical experience) some years back. His expression told me I was the latest on a long list of students to make this particular quiery. The short answer he gave me was that they were interchangable, more a matter of semantics than physics. As I held him in high regaurd and he held my GPA, that was good enough for me. FWIW

[Tau Zero]

In response to Carl's original query, "Motors or engines?" I would like to officially answer,


--"Yes." :eek: :rolleyes: ;) :D :p


(That's what "walking the middle line" in TV news for years will *do* to you. :) )


Cheers,

[jdbectec]

For whatever it's worth, I once heard that NASA refers to them as liguid fuel engines and solid fuel motors. I don't know what that makes a hybrid.

[Nuke Rocketeer]

Motor to me has do do with MOTION.
Engine to me has to do with mechanical moving parts for power.

I do not see any mechanicalally moving parts in a rocket Motor :D , just hot moving gases.



Or any of us a few hours after a fine meal in a Mexican Eatery.

[11bravo]

As if anyone cares, the way I had it explained to me is that an engine can be controlled by a throttle while a motor cannot.
Sounded pretty good to me and so that's what I use.

Greg

[Daniel Runyon]

But... motor just doesn't sound cool. :p

[mperdue]

He said to remember that engines run on fuel and motors run on electricity. Overly simple explanation, but I noticed it worked better than any other explanation I could come up with.

If that's true, why do they call it the Indianapolis Motor Speedway?

An engine converts some form of energy to mechanical force. If the end result is motion then it can be properly called a motor.

[mperdue]

I will say, I have NEVER heard of an ENGINE that did NOT run on fuel though.


How about a siege engine or an analytical engine?

Mario

[barone]

Carl.....see what you've done?

[ghrocketman]

How about a "search engine"? Those certainly are powered electrically !


I would argue that the word "motor" sounds cool as long as it is proceeded by the word "junk-"
junk-motor: def.-any motor that is good for nothing but a boat-anchor
Typically this term is applied to late-seventies smog-emissions equipped V8's that had less than half the horsepower of their earlier high-compression non-emission controlled base engines from the 60's & early 70's. :D :p :D

All humor aside, I have always called them engines as the packages from Estes and Centuri I bought as a child always said "engines".
The Centuri exception to this rule was their "mini-motor" line.

[Doug Sams]

In fact the American Heritage Dictionary defines motor as 1.Something, such as a machine or an engine, that produces or imparts motion.
To add to this, a definition of engine is: 1. a machine for converting thermal energy into mechanical energy or power to produce force and motion. So, depending on the particular device of interest, it may be a motor, an engine, or both (or neither :))

The point is that the definitions overlap. The motor imparts motion while the engine converts energy from one form to another.

As a kid, I always heard the old cliche, "motors are electric, engines are in cars", but the reality is that the terms are not mutually exclusive. They can be interchanged in many cases. Hence, applying both terms to propulsion units is / should be acceptable :)

Doug
My favorite engine is the FFT engine since it converts signals from time domain to frequency domain (and back) :D

[ncc1701]

On the NASA gallery segment last night on nasa's channel they had a show on the x15. The engineers regularly used the terms Motor and Engine interchangeably when talking about the x15's 'Rocket Engine' and 'Rocket Motor'.

Plus we have Motorbikes, Motorcycles, Motorcars and Motorboats

[ghrocketman]

and I have very rarely seen a MOTORbike, MOTORcar, MOTORcycle, or MOTORboat that was electrically powered !

ENGINEcycle or ENGINEboat ?....nah...sounds hideous !

[handeman]

Bottom line, last word --- Rocket motors! :) That's what I've always called them and that's what they are, end of debate. (at least for me, see ya all in a different thread)

BTW, If you insist in calling them engines, I'll still know what you're talking about.

[Daniel Runyon]

WWVD (What Would Vern Do!)?

Whatever you want to call them, I sure do hope someone else will step up to the plate and start making them (and at prices in line with what we pay already). It's just not a comfortable thing to rely on the companies that make em now... if anything were to happen to Bill, is there anyone to take over or would Quest fold? Not that they make a wide enough variety.

And Estes cannot be counted on to continue a given line... you never know when one will be discontinued and you wind up with a significant part of your fleet that cannot fly.

I think that someone should do some hanging out with Vern and get him to give them the whole scoop on how to make em. There needs to be alternative sources, and there needs to be some long term insurance that our hobby will be enabled.

[Royatl]

Oh, there are people here on this very forum that know *exactly* how to make em!

[ncc1701]

Mass producing them is more the difficulty I think. Making them by hand is certainly possible if you know what you are doing. Id love to see some other mid power bp motors made like a full E etc.

The article about Mable in sport rocketry was really interesting. It is important to note that Estes is the only company that hasn't had a fatality in making bp motors although they came close.

[Jeff Walther]

Outboard MOTORS (Mercury, Johnson, Yamaha, Evinrude, etc) certainly need oxygen to run(unless a trolling motor), thus the 'shop' teacher was wrong.
I KNOW if I blocked the air intake to my 150 Merc it most definitely would NOT run !


The whole unit is an outboard motor. It motor-vates the boat across the water. But the thing inside that burns the fuel and makes it go is an engine. It's not a Briggs & Stratton (or whatever) motor.

[Jeff Walther]

You know, engines! Just like the Solid Rocket Engines on the space shuttle!

And the Space Shuttle Main Motors!

Suppose ATK and Rocketdyne know more than we do?

Yes, because the official name for them is the SSMEs or Space Shuttle Main Engines. They are most definitely not the SSMMs. And if you've ever worked with, for or near NASA you know that the acronym is everything.

I once had a NASA glossary of acronyms. It was a legacy copy because it had gone out of print. I wonder if that's in the box in teh attic somewhere...

[Jeff Walther]

The question is, what came first? The chicken or the egg?

The chicken. A chicken can lay and hatch an egg without the help of an egg.

An egg cannot hatch without a chicken to sit on it and incubate it.

:D

[Chas Russell]

Jeff,

My quote above was "tongue-in-cheek" as a purposeful mistatement of the acronyms. Reversing motor and engines on the space shuttle elements.

I am a MSgt USAF (ret) who played with SRAM, ALCM, GLCM, ACM, OAS, ESTS, BDU, etc.

NASA isn't the only organization who be lovin' them a mess of acronyms!

Chas

[jadebox]

NASA isn't the only organization who be lovin' them a mess of acronyms!

I'm working on a project for the Marine's Combat Operations Center right now. I'm not lovin' the acronym!

-- Roger

[Chas Russell]

Sort of like the field radios we had in GLCM, they were PRC's. Never went anywhere without our "pricks".

C

[WillMarchant]

In the seventh edition of Sutton & Biblarz's "Rocket Propulsion Elements" they say that you use solid motor and liquid engine. I asked Oscar Biblarz if he knew when or where that distinction got made and he said he didn't know of a reference.

[jadebox]

In the seventh edition of Sutton & Biblarz's "Rocket Propulsion Elements" they say that you use solid motor and liquid engine. I asked Oscar Biblarz if he knew when or where that distinction got made and he said he didn't know of a reference.

This is an old thread that got bounced and I'm sure no concensus was formed. But I'll add my two cents by quoting the first definitions for "motor" and "engine" as listed as Answers.com:

engine (ĕn'jĭn)

1 a) A machine that converts energy into mechanical force or motion.

motor (mō'tər)

1 a) Something, such as a machine or an engine, that produces or imparts motion.

So, either term is appropriate (though I prefer "rocket motor" for no better reason than it sounds better to me).

-- Roger

[tbzep]

An egg cannot hatch without a chicken to sit on it and incubate it.



Yes it can. My grandfather made a portion of his living hatching eggs without chickens sitting on them. :D

[STRMan]

The designation is arbitrary. Outboard motors, Jet engines, a locomotive with electric motors driving the wheels and a diesel engine supplying the electricity. You buy a crate motor to put into a car. This engine attaches to the frame with motor mounts.

In the USA we drive a car on the left side, in the UK they drive on the right ride. Is one right and one wrong? No! It was an arbitrary decision. Both terms are COMPLETELY INTERCHANGEABLE. :D

Now, go back to arguing about something nobody will ever be wrong about. ;)

[Ltvscout]

Yes it can. My grandfather made a portion of his living hatching eggs without chickens sitting on them. :D
Whoa! So your grandpa sat on the eggs???

:chuckle:

[Bazookadale]

The chicken. A chicken can lay and hatch an egg without the help of an egg.

An egg cannot hatch without a chicken to sit on it and incubate it.

:D

Sorry, the egg clearly came first. It was laid and incubated by a hen not genetically a chicken ( but close) A genetic mutation took place in the embryo - the resulting animal was the first chicken!
http://www.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science/05/26/chicken.egg/

[tbzep]

Whoa! So your grandpa sat on the eggs???

:chuckle:

Only if he fell into the incubator. :p

[Jeff Walther]

Jeff,

My quote above was "tongue-in-cheek" as a purposeful mistatement of the acronyms. Reversing motor and engines on the space shuttle elements.

I am a MSgt USAF (ret) who played with SRAM, ALCM, GLCM, ACM, OAS, ESTS, BDU, etc.

NASA isn't the only organization who be lovin' them a mess of acronyms!

<Laughing> I saw that mentioned in a later message after I posted, but decided to leave it alone. Sorry I missed the tone on my initial read-through.

[Mark II]

Soooo.....

... is a windmill a motor or an engine?

... What about a waterwheel?

... Or a nuclear power plant?

... When I am riding my bicycle, do I become a motor (or an engine)?

... Is the heart a motor, or is it an engine?

... What about the planet Jupiter? Or Sgr A*? Or your old high school gym teacher?

... When the moon produces tidal effects in the oceans, is it acting as a motor or an engine?

I'm as confused as ever. :confused:

Mark \\.

[tbzep]

... When I am riding my bicycle, do I become a motor (or an engine)?


That depends completely on the type of sound you make with your mouth as you pedal down the hill, faster and faster. :p

[jadebox]

Both terms are COMPLETELY INTERCHANGEABLE.

Somewhat .... Most motors are engines (converting some form of energy into kinetic energy [motion]), and an engine is not necessarily a motor (one example is Google).

-- Roger

[jadebox]

Ignoring the silly ones ....

... Or a nuclear power plant?

It's an engine converting stored nuclear energy to eletricity (or several engines converting nuclear energy to steam to electricty )...

... When I am riding my bicycle, do I become a motor (or an engine)?

You're part of the motor (supplying motion) and the engine (converting stored chemical energy to heat and kinetic energy)

-- Roger

[SierraCharlie]

My two cents: Delightful to see such a heated discussion about something that, at one time plagued me as well. Before my (semi) retirement I was a "motorman", I worked with electric motors and drive systems. It just didn't sit well with me when someone called a car engine a motor, (i.e. the NASCAR driver that "blowed up the motor") although the starter and heater blower are motors. Looking into it a little, it seems that Bubba wasn't wrong. Motors supply motion. After this epiphany, I have been able to accept either term, but I use "engine" for any motor that uses combustion to provide motion (converting stored chemical energy to mechanical energy) So all engines are motors, but not all motors are engines. I know it's not exactly Webster's, but it works for me.

[Bluegrass Rocket]

Maybe our devices to move model rockets could have their own name. I like "thrusters". Model rocket thrusters has a nice ring to it. ;)

[jadebox]

Maybe our devices to move model rockets could have their own name. I like "thrusters". Model rocket thrusters has a nece ring to it. ;)

In one of the discussions on this topic, someone suggested "whoosh generator." I like that ....

-- Roger

[Mark II]

Ignoring the silly ones ....[...]

-- Roger
Silly? I wasn't trying to be...

Seriously, could the biological heart be regarded as a motor or an engine, or both?

The planet Jupiter has been used in gravity-assist schemes to fling space probes out to the outer solar system. (It also flings such things as comets and asteroids into the inner solar system.) Since it imparts motion, could it also be considered a motor or engine? What about Sagittarius A*, the supermassive black hole that lies at the center of the Milky Way galaxy?

And really, what about wind turbines and water turbines?

Can there be motors or engines in nature, or must the definition include the statement that both items must always be deliberately constructed by humans?

I think that some of the ambiguity about which term is more appropriate may in some small part be related to the fact that the English word "engine" has undergone a change in definition over the centuries. Originally, wasn't the term applied to any mechanical contraption, device or construction, regardless of its effects and means of actuation? I'm thinking, for example, of the term "siege engine" which included such things as movable wooden scaffolding that was rolled up to a fortress' walls to enable attackers to scale them. I guess that sense continues to this day in terms like "search engine" which is a set of algorithms executed by a computer. So, in that sense, the word "engine" would involve any construction, of anything from physical objects to ordered sets of instructions, that are deliberately arranged into a designed grouping to work together to perform some task. A "motor", on the other hand, is a device that converts energy into motion. There is some overlap in the categories, in that there are some motors that are engines, and others that are not. Similarly, there are some engines that are motors, as well as others that are not. Hence, there is no simple answer to the question: motor or engine? It all depends on what exactly is being talked about.

If one accepts the descriptions that I just outlined, then the propellant devices that we are discussing can be called engines. The are deliberately constructed out of a mixture of chemicals, deliberately arranged in a "grouping" along with other designed parts, such as a nozzle and a casing, and all the parts of the grouping or arrangement are intended to work together to perform some task. The propellant devices can also be called motors, because they convert the energy released by burning a certain mixture of chemicals into motion. So the answer to the question, are they "motors" or are they "engines" is: they are both. Such a device meets the definition of an engine, and it also meets the definition of a motor. Therefore, either term is appropriate.

Mark \\.

[Mark II]

I wonder if this debate over the terms is specific to the English language. Is there an equivalent debate in other languages as well?

If it is an English-only debate, then the controversy could turn out to be nothing more than a peculiar artifact of the language's history.

Mark \\.

[Peartree]

Mark,

I think a heart is more appropriately describes as a pump than anything else. It doesn't generate it's own power but is powered electrochemically.

Jupiter or any other planet is just a gravity well. Just because you can use it as a booster of sorts doesn't really make it an engine any more than a large hill is an engine when a kid coasts down it on a bicycle.

Wind turbines or water turbines are another thing as well. They do not consume energy or generate motion but consume motion and generate usable energy so are more properly referred to as generators.

More generally, standard practice says they are electric motors.

Automotive terminology tends to use both engine and motor as well as power plant.

I agree though that motor and engine seem to be fairly interchangeable for this particular application.

[Jeff Walther]

... When I am riding my bicycle, do I become a motor (or an engine)?


The contracting fibers in your muscles which eat ATP are the engines. :-) Everything higher up in the hierarchy are motors.

[Mark II]

The reason that I mentioned those examples was because the definitions that had been previously discussed in the thread did not preclude them.

Is a pump a type of engine? Is a turbine? I'm not trying to be argumentative here. I don't have any engineering background (and practically none in physics, either). I never took shop in school because the parochial schools that I attended did not have the budgets to teach Industrial Arts. The closest I got was taking Mechanical Drawing for about 3 months when my family moved to another city during the spring break (8th grade), and then taking Drafting the following year. Consequently, I don't know how these two words are defined from an engineering perspective, but it just seems to me that the words "engine" and "motor" describe two closely related concepts that, to some extent, overlap. But not totally. As I said in a previous post, I see the category of "engines" as including some motors, but not all of them. Similarly, I see the category of "motors" as including some engines, but not all of them. Neither category is a subset of the other; rather, they share some members in common because they are, in fact, very closely related categories.

I also feel that the term "engine" historically did not (and in fact, still does not) just include mechanical devices that transform some form of power into another form for the purposes of doing work (not directly or principally, anyway). Rather, it is a more general term to describe an engineered device. Period. I suspect that the more general term of "engine" became equated with "devices that provide motion" during the Industrial Revolution, and that was when the controversy or confusion over the categories of "engine" and "motor" developed. I suspect that this debate may have never occurred before that time.

Mark \\.

[Jeff Walther]

I don't have any engineering background (and practically none in physics, either). I never took shop in school because the parochial schools that I attended did not have the budgets to teach Industrial Arts. The closest I got was taking Mechanical Drawing for about 3 months when my family moved to another city during the spring break (8th grade), and then taking Drafting the following year. Consequently, I don't know how these two words are defined from an engineering perspective,

Pretty much all my arguments have been mostly tongue in cheek--although there was an element of trying the arguments on for size to see how far they will fly. (How's that for mixing metaphors?)

I have degrees in aerospace and electrical engineering and I have never seen the two terms clearly defined. Perhaps over in mechanical or civil engineering...

[Shreadvector]

Pretty much all my arguments have been mostly tongue in cheek--although there was an element of trying the arguments on for size to see how far they will fly. (How's that for mixing metaphors?)

I have degrees in aerospace and electrical engineering and I have never seen the two terms clearly defined. Perhaps over in mechanical or civil engineering...

I've seen them clearly defined. This has been discussed and beaten to death dozens of times before in other forums (which may or may not still be pining for the fjords...).

Motors do not need moving machinery to generate their output: electric motors, transverse linear motors (aka "Mass Drivers" or some cool Six Flags rides), solid or hybrid rocket MOTORS.

Engines require machinery that moves to generate their output: liquid rocket engines have turbomachinery, internal combustion ENGINE, etc.

The English language is full of screwed up words that have been used incorrectly by the mass public and if you dare try to correct them you are attacked (a la "Idiocracy" - a must-see movie). Automobiles have had electric motors and gasoline engines and the name of the "car" company does drive the correct engineering terminology. So "poo" to the "M" in GM and BMW. And forget about "search engines".

If you design solid rocket motors, we are not going to call you a "Motoreer".

"Captain, the motors are buckling! She canna take no more!"

[Rocket Doctor]

Why don't we just call them Model Rocket Propellant Devices?

Motors or engines, they do the job that they were designed to do, power model rockets to apogee.

[Shreadvector]

Why don't we just call them Model Rocket Propellant Devices?

Motors or engines, they do the job that they were designed to do, power model rockets to apogee.

No, Silly...they power model rockets to burnout altitude. The model rocket then coasts to apogee. :D (Unless you picked the incorrect delay time and then, if short, will still coast until apogee, but if long, you'll coast past apogee and back down somewhat....).

They are motors. It's quite simple. I explained why. No moving parts.

[Shreadvector]

Who is going to star the (latest) "Igniter vs. Ignitor" thread? :chuckle:

[Carl@Semroc]

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'
'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'
'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master - that's all.'
From Through The Looking Glass
by Lewis Carroll

If you are watching this thread, Ed, you have to be amused. :chuckle:

Model rocket engine or model rocket motor? Both are right, depending on what we choose the words mean. But, after about a half a billion devices have been labeled "Model Rocket Engine", that makes a compelling case that someone is the master.

Repeating from the first post in this thread,One of the most asked questions we get is, "Will Semroc ever make its own motors again?" I can honestly say that Semroc will never make motors!and that came directly from Humpty Dumpty. :D

I have noticed that Bill is now using "engine (motor)" in more places. Hmmm.

[Rocket Doctor]

Fred, Yes, I'm being silly, being so serious isn't the best.

As long as the motr ignites, who cares, and as long as it goe up instead of sideways, who cares.

I guess it's the cold up here that's effected me, heading back South tomorrow, hopefully, I won't have a three hour flight delay.

And poor old Humpty Dumpty , he fell off the wall, or, he might have been PUSHED.........

[Shreadvector]

I literally chortled at that one.

[SecretSquirrel]

From FAA publication AC-65-12a:

http://www.squirrel-works.com/misc/ac6512a.jpg

[Mark II]

Don,

Where did you pick up THAT heretical piece of balderdash from? :p

Mark \\.

P.S. Yes, Doc, none of this conversation is of any consequence at all. Just an excuse to chat. ;)

[SecretSquirrel]

I had to read that book to pass my FAA exams.

[lessgravity]

As a curious rocketeer of 12 years old in 1973 I posed this very question to NASA in a letter - snailmail was the best way to get answers back then.

"What should I call them - Rocket motors or Rocket Engines?

I haven't forgotten the answer to this day.

"It is customary that a liquid propellant rocket system is called an engine and a solid rocket system is called a motor"

The answer was exciting but the glossy 9x11 photos of Saturns and the moon were even better.

[Mark II]

Carl,

Whenever I log onto this forum, I always feel like I have stepped through the looking glass! :chuckle:

Talk about hoary old debates, when we are done here, will anyone be up for revisiting the "Black Brant / Black Brandt" issue? :eek: :p

Mark \\.

[GIJoe]

If you place a gimbaled exhaust nozzle on a solid propellant rocket MOTOR, does it become a rocket ENGINE since it now has moving parts?

Personally I like to use the words Motor and Engine interchangeably, usually in the same sentence.

On a different note, I got this off the internet, so I cannot (can't) confirm it accuracy, since anybody could have made it up:

motor –noun
1. a comparatively small and powerful engine, esp. an internal-combustion engine in an automobile, motorboat, or the like.

engine -noun
1. motor that converts thermal energy to mechanical work

The English language does not stand still for anyone and as we continue to add words and misuse words the language will continue to do just that. In the end some people will be ambivalent to the changes and others will be in a snit.

So in the end I would undoubtedly put an IGNITOR/IGNITER into my MOTOR/ENGINE and secure that into my BLACK BRANDT/BLACK BRANT rocket and press the button. Hopefully my rocket flies straight and true and the MOTOR/ENGINE does not suffer a CATO.

But the definition for CATO can be found on another thread.

One last thought; always wear sunblock.

Joe

[Gingerdawg]

If you place a gimbaled exhaust nozzle on a solid propellant rocket MOTOR, does it become a rocket ENGINE since it now has moving parts?

Personally I like to use the words Motor and Engine interchangeably, usually in the same sentence.

On a different note, I got this off the internet, so I cannot (can't) confirm it accuracy, since anybody could have made it up:

motor –noun
1. a comparatively small and powerful engine, esp. an internal-combustion engine in an automobile, motorboat, or the like.

engine -noun
1. motor that converts thermal energy to mechanical work

The English language does not stand still for anyone and as we continue to add words and misuse words the language will continue to do just that. In the end some people will be ambivalent to the changes and others will be in a snit.

So in the end I would undoubtedly put an IGNITOR/IGNITER into my MOTOR/ENGINE and secure that into my BLACK BRANDT/BLACK BRANT rocket and press the button. Hopefully my rocket flies straight and true and the MOTOR/ENGINE does not suffer a CATO.

But the definition for CATO can be found on another thread.

One last thought; always wear sunblock.

Joe

Soooooo, did you post all that with a Mac or a PC and which is better??? :rolleyes: :eek:

[GIJoe]

Soooooo, did you post all that with a Mac or a PC and which is better??? :rolleyes: :eek:

Sony Beta or VHS? The answer may not be; which one is better, but which one do you own. Nobody wastes time building/creating viruses for MAC's because hardly anybody uses them. But if they suddenly took off, so would opportunity to exploit them. Everybody loves a good challenge.

[Mark II]

Curiouser and curiouser... :rolleyes:

Mark \\.

[Carl@Semroc]

Curiouser and curiouser... :rolleyes:

Mark \\.Do you mean curiouser and curiousor?

Oops! Wrong thread.

[Mark II]

Do you mean curiouser and curiousor?

Oops! Wrong thread.
No, but maybe I should have said cursor and curser... Oh, wait...! [cursering over my keyboard]...

Did I mention that my wife sometimes gives me instant oaths for breakfast? :chuckle:

Mark \\.

[Rocket Doctor]

Potato or Potatoe

tomato or tomatoe



Just push the buttom/switch and light up the igniter/ignitor and watch the motor/engine propell the rocket to apogee./ altitude. Let's just hope that the recovery system works properly.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

An object set in motion ,stays in motion.

Where is Albert Einstein when you need him?????

What about the Class C Toy Propellant Device??????

[Chas Russell]

My understanding is that if a word ends in the suffix "-er", then it is an object. It it ends in the suffix "-or", then it is a person. Igniter should be the proper name for the objects that we utilize to ignite a model rocket motor. If I go light the pilot on my water heater, I could be an ignitor. Fanning the flames.

Don't make me sic my daughter on you, as she is an English teacher who is working on a PhD.

Chas

[Bazookadale]

My understanding is that if a word ends in the suffix "-er", then it is an object. It it ends in the suffix "-or", then it is a person. Igniter should be the proper name for the objects that we utilize to ignite a model rocket motor. If I go light the pilot on my water heater, I could be an ignitor. Fanning the flames.

Don't make me sic my daughter on you, as she is an English teacher who is working on a PhD.

Chas

So you're saying a motor is a person? I'm more confused then ever.

[Chas Russell]

Good point. I guess I should have stated that as a rule. As a rule, there are exceptions.

Hoisted by my own petard!

Note: historically, a petard was a bomb used to breach castle walls or doors. If it went off too soon, the bomber (bombor?) was "hoisted". It blowed up real good!

Chas

[Doug Sams]

If it went off too soon, the bomber (bombor?) was "hoisted". A bomber is a plane. The person is a bombardier :D

Doug

.

[luke strawwalker]

Deb Martin of Launch Magazine asked me a simple question several weeks ago that for me was not THAT simple. It is more of a journey for me and this is how I seemed to wind up on the road less traveled by.

1959
When I first started making the sugar rockets based on the design by Charles Parkin, Jr. in "The Rocket Manual for Amateurs," I was calling them motors since he never referred to them as engines. All the small commercial rocket motors in the appendix were an interesting aside. The Rock-A-Chute (Type A-4) motor had 1.0 lb thrust for .8 seconds and was 2.5" long and .687" diameter. The Pet at 40.0 lb thrust for 1 second and 4.8" long and 1.5" diameter was the one I really wanted. It was made by Atlantic Research Corp. and I could not find any purchase information. The Rock-A-Chute motor by MMI was in my Boy's Life magazine, but I did not buy from them. I just kept working on the sugar based motors in aluminum tubes with crude nozzles.

1960
When I found a copy of "Rocket Manual for Amateurs" by Bertand Brinley in the local Edward's Drug Store in late 1960, I found a goldmine of projects for rocket motors. It was my first introduction to Newton's Third Law and "reaction motors." It was also my introduction to SAE 1020 steel, flashbulb ignition, burst diaphragms, sandbags, and zinc-sulfur. I had still not heard them called engines.

1961
I was still making emptied CO2 casing motors with zinc-sulfur and doing underground testing, since most of them exploded. I was also learning how to turn deLaval nozzles on the lathe in aluminum (easy) and SAE 1020 bar stock (harder to work with). And I was still calling them motors.

1962
While in 9th grade general science class, I would sit in the auditorium and design nozzles for the latest zinc-sulfur or sugar rocket while Mrs. Finch covered the wide range of totally boring fields of physical and biological science. One day, she started talking about Newton's Laws and I listened instead of designing. She was talking about the one thing that interested me at the time. She was talking about "reaction engines" including jet engines and rocket engines. I knew she was wrong in not calling them jet motors and rocket motors, but it was interesting anyway. I still called them motors. I started ordering zinc dust from Central Rocket Company and they used motors and engines interchangeably.

1963
I got my first Estes catalog in late 1962 or early 1963 and they had Rocket Engines! They had more types of engines than I could even think of uses for. They were small, but they did not explode like most of mine. I kept making the large ones and small "shotgun shell" rockets, but my orders (and letters) to Estes started. I read and re-read those pages about "rocket engine design," never calling them motors again. I did not know why Estes chose engines instead of motors, but I thought that they must be right.

The best mechanic in town, Mr. Beddard, shed some light on the matter. He worked for the Chevrolet dealership and said that he "worked on automobiles powered by engines and his competition across the street worked on cars powered by motors." That clinched it for me. Engines were the top of the line. I knew then why Estes changed the name. Mrs. Finch was right. Why call them jet engines, but rocket motors when they both operate on the same principle.

1965
In the 1965 "Handbook of Model Rocketry" by G. Harry Stine, he referred to them as model rocket engines. The older designation of motor was over. If G. Harry Stine and Vern Estes called them engines, they were engines!

1968
When I started Semroc, we called them model rocket engines, but for a brief time, we also called them propulsion modules. We were perfecting a delay-ejection charge auxiliary package (DECAP) for booster engines. It did not seem to be right to convert a booster engine into a single stage engine, so we changed the designation. When we made our own engines, we developed an "engine machine" to make engines. When we went out of business in 1971, I though engine was the permanent name for model rocket engines.

Fast forward to 1999
When Bruce and I started in high power, I noticed that many people flying at Whitakers were using the older, obsolete term of motor to describe large engines, but kept the term model rocket engines for smaller ones. It became a constant battle of me correcting others and them correcting me, so I call the large ones motors and the small ones engines. I took my Chevrolet in to the shop years ago and Mr. Beddard asked what was wrong with it. I told him the motor did not sound right. He asked me which one, the windshield wiper motor, the heater motor, the starter motor, or the power window motor. I corrected myself by saying the "engine" did not sound right. He said to remember that engines run on fuel and motors run on electricity. Overly simple explanation, but I noticed it worked better than any other explanation I could come up with.

One of the most asked questions we get is, "Will Semroc ever make its own motors again?" I can honestly say that Semroc will never make motors!

Well, in the Sixth Edition of G. Harry's "Handbook of MR" he refers to the fact that they should more properly be called motors, even though the 'engines' moniker was more widely used and had stuck by that time.

As far as reaction propulsion units and the terms to describe them, seems like NASA and most of the "real" industry calls pure chemical reaction propelled devices with no moving parts to create the combustion "motors" IE solid rocket motors, which use no moving parts during operation (apart from the TVC nozzles, etc., but no moving parts such as fuel pumps, valves, etc. to sustain the combustion of the motor.) Shuttle SRB's are interchangeably referred to as "SRM's" in various technical discussions, especially when used as thrust augmentors on other vehicles. They call reaction propulsion devices utilizing moving parts, such as turbopumps, controllers, valving, turbines, etc. as "engines", such as the F-1 and J-2 ENGINES used on Saturn V, and the Space Shuttle Main Engines (SSME's) Basically they use the terms to differentiate whether you're talking about a solid propellant device or a liquid propellant device, with solid propellant being a "motor" and liquid propellant being an "engine". Most jet engines (except ramjets which aren't in widespread use) use turbines and compressor fans to operate and sustain the combustion cycle, so they are technically "engines". The argument could be made, and kinda falls into the gray area, that ramjets using only the incoming air to compress and sustain the combustion cycle, with minimal moving parts to inject fuel in the airstream and ignite it, and pressure fed rocket engines with only fuel and oxidizer valves and perhaps ignition and gimbal systems could be called "motors" too, though typically they're referred to as "engines".

I think that's the best metric I've seen to determine whether a reaction propulsion unit should more properly be called a "motor" or "engine" and that's what I try to do... OL JR :)

[Jeff Walther]

One last thought; always wear sunblock.

I think the vitamin D catalyzing effects of sunlight are underappreciated and the fad to always wear excessive amounts of sunblock are likely having unnoticed (so far) deleterious effects on our health. :-)

[luke strawwalker]

The designation is arbitrary. Outboard motors, Jet engines, a locomotive with electric motors driving the wheels and a diesel engine supplying the electricity. You buy a crate motor to put into a car. This engine attaches to the frame with motor mounts.

In the USA we drive a car on the left side, in the UK they drive on the right ride. Is one right and one wrong? No! It was an arbitrary decision. Both terms are COMPLETELY INTERCHANGEABLE. :D

Now, go back to arguing about something nobody will ever be wrong about. ;)

Nope, sorry, you're wrong... driving on the left is just wrong...

Cars with LH drive is just wrong...

discussion over. Hope you learned your lesson! (J/K:) ) OL JR :)

[Jeff Walther]

Did I mention that my wife sometimes gives me instant oaths for breakfast?

<chuckling>

[Jeff Walther]

So you're saying a motor is a person? I'm more confused then ever.

And what does that make a "colour"?

[Peartree]

If the plural of octopus is octopi, then is the singular of apple pie an applepus?

[luke strawwalker]

No, but maybe I should have said cursor and curser... Oh, wait...! [cursering over my keyboard]...

Did I mention that my wife sometimes gives me instant oaths for breakfast? :chuckle:

Mark \\.

Sounds like a sign I saw in a grocery store when I lived in Nashville, TN... one of those star-shaped stickers they write on to show specials...

"Individual serving packs of RAISIN BRAIN!
ON SALE! $2.99 per pack
BIG BOWEL size!"

That is VERBATIM what it said-- raisin BRAIN, NOT raising BRAN, and it's the BIG BOWEL size boxes, not the BIG BOWL size...

I busted out laughing in the store and actually pulled the sign down and stuck it in my pocket and took it home... thought about sending it to Jay Leno for the "Headlines" bit but figured nobody'd actually believe me that it was posted in a real supermarket...

And people wonder why folks have a low opinion of our education system?? LOL:)

Sad thing is, my wife's an English teacher and she's not even supposed to grade on grammar, spelling, or sentence structure unless that is SPECIFICALLY the point of the exercise... I help her grade occassionally and it's truly PITIFUL how pathetically kids write and spell nowdays.... (edit, BTW she teaches AP! :eek: )

Poor writing/spelling is one of my pet peeves. :) OL JR :)

PS. Sometimes I get instant oaths at breakfast too... LOL:)

[luke strawwalker]

And what does that make a "colour"?

Glad you mentioned that... Pet Peeve #2-- The English language is convoluted enough without the British going around making it WORSE all the time with their extraneous letters (there is no "U" in color <g>) and inverted spelling (it's FIBER, NOT FIBRE) and strange words that have no meaning or different meanings, which make it darn hard to get the jokes on the Benny Hill Show sometimes (I lit a fag after exiting my lorry whilst using my torch to find the button for the lift) :eek:

In the words of Diedrich Bader in "The Beverly Hillbillies" SPEAK AMERICAN!!! LOL:) OL JR :)

[Bazookadale]

Sad thing is, my wife's an English teacher and she's not even supposed to grade on grammar, spelling, or sentence structure unless that is SPECIFICALLY the point of the exercise...

I had a Jr High Social Studies teacher who would mark an answer on a history test wrong if it was misspelled or improper grammar- I thought that was terribly unfair as a kid, but now I think he had the right idea.

[GIJoe]

Glad you mentioned that... Pet Peeve #2-- The English language is convoluted enough without the British going around making it WORSE all the time with their extraneous letters (there is no "U" in color <g>) and inverted spelling (it's FIBER, NOT FIBRE) and strange words that have no meaning or different meanings, which make it darn hard to get the jokes on the Benny Hill Show sometimes (I lit a fag after exiting my lorry whilst using my torch to find the button for the lift) :eek:

In the words of Diedrich Bader in "The Beverly Hillbillies" SPEAK AMERICAN!!! LOL:) OL JR :)

Speaking of those folks across the pond; can anybody explain to me why in Metric England I can buy a Pint of Ale or even a full Yard of Ale. Yet here in America, I have to settle for a Liter or Two Liter bottle of soda (Pop, Soda Pop, Coke, depending on what part of the country you reside.)

Why is there no container available to hold a "Barrel" of Oil? How much Oil is in a "Barrel" anyway?

[tbzep]

Speaking of those folks across the pond; can anybody explain to me why in Metric England I can buy a Pint of Ale or even a full Yard of Ale. Yet here in America, I have to settle for a Liter or Two Liter bottle of soda (Pop, Soda Pop, Coke, depending on what part of the country you reside.)

Why is there no container available to hold a "Barrel" of Oil? How much Oil is in a "Barrel" anyway?

I think drinking is so much of a tradition over there that there would be riots in the streets if ale was sold by the liter. :eek:

[Mark II]

[...]
Poor writing/spelling is one of my pet peeves. :) OL JR :)
Have you seen my pet, Peeve? :D

PS. Sometimes I get instant oaths at breakfast too... LOL:)
And for dinner, I sometimes have my choice of either hot tongue or cold shoulder! :p

My wife's Irish grandmother used to serve her husband rolled oaths!

Mark \\.

[Mark II]

[...]
Why is there no container available to hold a "Barrel" of Oil? How much Oil is in a "Barrel" anyway?
http://www.slate.com/id/2115219/

Mark \\.

[Peartree]

Speaking of those folks across the pond; can anybody explain to me why in Metric England I can buy a Pint of Ale or even a full Yard of Ale. Yet here in America, I have to settle for a Liter or Two Liter bottle of soda (Pop, Soda Pop, Coke, depending on what part of the country you reside.)

Why is there no container available to hold a "Barrel" of Oil? How much Oil is in a "Barrel" anyway?


One of my marketing major friends told me once that since most of the beverage companies are multinational corporations, they preferred to standardize their tooling and sell the same sizes everywhere.

My question is, why could I find 3-liter bottles of Coke and Pepsi when I was stationed at Ft. Campbell, KY but have never EVER seen them sold around here?

[Mark II]

Another thing that has me wondering: what is another word for "thesaurus"?

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rocket motor or rocket engine? I think that Shakespeare summed it up best when he wrote: Juliet:
"What's in a name? That which we call a burnt propellant module
By any other name would still smell."


Romeo and Juliet (II, ii, 1-2) (http://www.enotes.com/romeo-text/act-ii-scene-ii#rom-2-2-45)

Or something like that.

Mark \\.

[Mark II]

I had a Jr High Social Studies teacher who would mark an answer on a history test wrong if it was misspelled or improper grammar- I thought that was terribly unfair as a kid, but now I think he had the right idea.
Around here, it's not spelled, it's spelt!

Although I don't know what another cereal grain has to do with any of this! :chuckle:

Mark \\.

[Rocket Doctor]

Speaking of those folks across the pond; can anybody explain to me why in Metric England I can buy a Pint of Ale or even a full Yard of Ale. Yet here in America, I have to settle for a Liter or Two Liter bottle of soda (Pop, Soda Pop, Coke, depending on what part of the country you reside.)

Why is there no container available to hold a "Barrel" of Oil? How much Oil is in a "Barrel" anyway?

The Standard oil barrel of 42 US gallons (159L) is used in the United States as a measure of crude oil.

This amount of crude makes about 19.5 gallons of gasoline.

[luke strawwalker]

One of my marketing major friends told me once that since most of the beverage companies are multinational corporations, they preferred to standardize their tooling and sell the same sizes everywhere.

My question is, why could I find 3-liter bottles of Coke and Pepsi when I was stationed at Ft. Campbell, KY but have never EVER seen them sold around here?


That's funny, Pear... I'm over near Houston and you can find 3 liter bottles at most of the big box/grocery chain stores around here... W/M and Sam's have them for sure, as most HEB, Kroger, etc. too...

Not that I'm particularly crazy about 3 liters... unless you're having a party or something... just drinking them yourself they'll go flat LONG before you empty the bottle...

OL JR :)

[Shreadvector]

That's funny, Pear... I'm over near Houston and you can find 3 liter bottles at most of the big box/grocery chain stores around here... W/M and Sam's have them for sure, as most HEB, Kroger, etc. too...

Not that I'm particularly crazy about 3 liters... unless you're having a party or something... just drinking them yourself they'll go flat LONG before you empty the bottle...

OL JR :)

Why would they go flat in one day? ;)

[Rocketflyer]

So you're saying a motor is a person? I'm more confused then ever.



So'kay, as long as you don't get a case of the snits.

[Jeff Walther]

Not that I'm particularly crazy about 3 liters... unless you're having a party or something... just drinking them yourself they'll go flat LONG before you empty the bottle...

HEB sells a yummy (to me) grapefruit flavored soda under the Hill Country Fare name. For some bizarre reason, they stopped selling it in cans (~$1/six-pack) a few years back. I could understand if they just thought demand was too low, but they still sell it in the 3 liter bottle. And, of course, as LS writes, there's just too much in the 3 liter bottle. It goes flat. Plus, I like to put my soda in the freezer so that it freezes after I open the container. That is much more convenient to do with cans. Do that with a 3 liter bottle and most of it has warmed up before you can enjoy its Icee goodness.

The utterly bizarre aspect is that they still sell the "Tropical Citrus" flavor in cans. That stuff tastes like a poopy diaper sprayed with Febreeze. If they were going to stop canning a flavor, why couldn't it have been that one?

[Doug Sams]

My question is, why could I find 3-liter bottles of Coke and Pepsi when I was stationed at Ft. Campbell, KY but have never EVER seen them sold around here?While Coke has been consolidating its many franchisees (buying them up) there's still a great part of their production done by the local bottling franchises who determine the portfolio in the local marketplace (territory).

Speaking of Kentucky, I worked at the Coke plant in Elizabethtown, and there were many products we didn't do there. All our large throwaway bottles were 2 liters with 28mm caps. We weren't set up to run the 3-liter bottles. We did have some equipment for doing the 38mm caps, which were used on the 64oz and 2-liter glass bottles, but we had moved all that biz to the 2-liter plastic bottles.

Anyway, as you travel around the country, you'll see different mixes of products. But generally speaking, I think most of the returnable business has segued to throwaways. The old 6.5oz Coke bottles are now pretty scarce. The 16oz throwaways are now all plastic. Not sure if they even make any 10oz bottles anymore.

Basically, if your local bottler isn't doing a particular product, it's because he's never been able to justify the capital to add it to his production capability. He can't see the ROI.

Doug

.

[barone]

........Not that I'm particularly crazy about 3 liters... unless you're having a party or something... just drinking them yourself they'll go flat LONG before you empty the bottle...

OL JR :)
Oh heck....you're drinking them? I thought you were just dumping the contents so you could use the bottle to make a really cool looking rocket......something similar to a bomb..... :o

[GIJoe]

The utterly bizarre aspect is that they still sell the "Tropical Citrus" flavor in cans. That stuff tastes like a poopy diaper sprayed with Febreeze. If they were going to stop canning a flavor, why couldn't it have been that one?

Okay, are you sure it TASTES like a Poopy Diaper Sprayed with Fabreeze?

Oh heck....you're drinking them? I thought you were just dumping the contents so you could use the bottle to make a really cool looking rocket......something similar to a bomb..... :o

I used a three litre bottle to make a toilet plunger rocket. It is called Antwerp's Placebo (The Plumber), Grateful Dead tune from Shakedown Street. Flies great on E9-4's.

Joe

[Mark II]

One of my marketing major friends told me once that since most of the beverage companies are multinational corporations, they preferred to standardize their tooling and sell the same sizes everywhere.

My question is, why could I find 3-liter bottles of Coke and Pepsi when I was stationed at Ft. Campbell, KY but have never EVER seen them sold around here?
3-liter sized bottles of soda were common around here from about the mid-80's to the late 90's, and then they stopped appearing on the shelves. I do think that their demise probably had to do with customers not being able to finish a bottle that big before it went flat. That, and it didn't fit onto the shelves of many refrigerators at home and in many coolers in stores.

Mark \\.

[Jeff Walther]

Okay, are you sure it TASTES like a Poopy Diaper Sprayed with Fabreeze?

Well, I've tasted the soda. I figured if I couldn't get grapefruit flavored, then tropical citrus couldn't be that far off. Wrong!

As to the other, at that point I had changed enough poopy diapers recently enough and smelled febreeze at other folk's houses (don't use it myself) enough to interpolate.

Grapefruit flavored soda is really just a Fresca without artificial sweetner. Coca Cola made Citra which was the same thing. The loss of Citra is what drove me to the HEB house brand, which is about 1/2 as expensive and jus as good. So that was good until HEB stabbed me in the back.

Coca Cola sold off their fruit flavors and switched to Fanta flavors which, to my tastes, are too sweet and flavorless, except for the sweetness. Until then, they had (under the Minute Maid name) quite a good Orange and Strawberry soda. The Fanta stuff isn't even close.

There was a while there when you never knew which one (Fanta or MM) was going to come out of a fountain because the labels were not always unpdated in concert with the change in syrup.

:D

[tbzep]

3-liter sized bottles of soda were common around here from about the mid-80's to the late 90's, and then they stopped appearing on the shelves. I do think that their demise probably had to do with customers not being able to finish a bottle that big before it went flat. That, and it didn't fit onto the shelves of many refrigerators at home and in many coolers in stores.

Mark \\.

They not only went flat before they could be drank, but they also went flat a little quicker than a 2 liter bottle. I guess it was due to the wider mouth.

Another reason they didn't do well here is that once you divided the cost by three and the cost of a two liter by two, you found that you weren't saving any money. In fact, they were often more expensive per liter around her. :rolleyes:

[LeeR]

Well, I've tasted the soda. I figured if I couldn't get grapefruit flavored, then tropical citrus couldn't be that far off. Wrong!

:D

Isn't Squirt billed as "grapefruit-flavored" soda? I'm a big fan of it, but it has been awhile since I've had regular soda, and my memory is failing me regarding the labeling on the can. (That and about a 100 other things ...)

[luke strawwalker]

Okay, are you sure it TASTES like a Poopy Diaper Sprayed with Fabreeze?



Joe

Have you ever been riding a go-kart in a pasture, do a spin out and hit a really big, really fresh cowpie while looking over your shoulder into the turn with your mouth open??

Ever get a big ol' Skoal-dip size plug of fresh wet cow crap land right in your mouth as a result?? :eek:

I have... :rolleyes: :o :p

Funny thing was... it was kinda sweet actually... :eek: :p :D

OL JR :)

[tbzep]

Ever get a big ol' Skoal-dip size plug of fresh wet cow crap land right in your mouth as a result??

Funny thing was... it was kinda sweet actually...



Tastes like money. ;)


I first heard that in a slightly different variation from hog farmer (sows and feeder pigs in the thousands range) I used to know. When people asked him how he could stand the smell, he just grinned real big and said, "Smells like money to me." :cool:

[luke strawwalker]

Had a penpal and later dated a girl in Iowa... that seems to be a common idea up there... :)

Still, I don't go around licking money... probably safer with the cow crap!

I'd pass on tasting either actually... OL JR :)

[tbzep]

Given the choice, I'd pass on them too. I get an occasional present when I clip my pastures after moving the cattle off of them. There's always a few patties that are extra tall, or conveniently left in a spot where the hog bottoms out and slings the stuff everywhere. It never fails that I'm looking back at least once or twice during a cutting session. I try to remember to keep my mouth closed. :rolleyes: It's a small price to pay to keep the rocket field looking nice. :p

[luke strawwalker]

Given the choice, I'd pass on them too. I get an occasional present when I clip my pastures after moving the cattle off of them. There's always a few patties that are extra tall, or conveniently left in a spot where the hog bottoms out and slings the stuff everywhere. It never fails that I'm looking back at least once or twice during a cutting session. I try to remember to keep my mouth closed. :rolleyes: It's a small price to pay to keep the rocket field looking nice. :p

You're up in Tennessee right?? Wherabouts?? My wife was living in Nashville when we got married and I moved up there for nearly a year when we got married, before we moved back to Texas and the farm. It's pretty nice up there but TX is nice too... JUST FLAT!!!

How many acres you got and what kind of cows do you run?? We've got our old home place here at Needville, about 45 miles west of Houston (http://www.artapplewhite.com/fields/robertsranch/farmphoto001.jpg) . We run mostly Hereford white faces with a few Roans and half-breed Red Angus and Charolais from heifers produced when the neighbor's bulls broke into the place over the years. We've got 87 acres here at Needville and run about 30 head plus calves. This place was bought by my great-grandfather in 1902 from his uncle who decided to move back to NY after the Great Hurricane of 1900 killed 6000 people in Galveston, TX. We've been here ever since. We've also got 160 acre place up near Shiner about 100 miles west of here. It's sandy rolling hills and a bit drier than here, in fact we're in drought right now and this is our rainy season! :(
We're currently running about 30 head up there plus calves, but we were up to over 100 before we switched the Needville farm over from cotton and grain sorghum to cattle pastures a few years back! Actually the place up there needs the rest, so I'm going to stick with the low stocking rate for now, especially in THIS economy!

We provide the farm as a launch site for the Challenger 498 club out of Katy, TX, adjacent to Houston. It's pretty cool living on the launch field! We have a ball on launch days... :)

Anyhow, gotta run. Have a good one and we'll catch ya later! OL JR :)

[tbzep]

You're up in Tennessee right?? Wherabouts?? My wife was living in Nashville when we got married and I moved up there for nearly a year when we got married, before we moved back to Texas and the farm. It's pretty nice up there but TX is nice too... JUST FLAT!!!

How many acres you got and what kind of cows do you run??

I'm about half way between Memphis and Nashville in Huntingdon. Old Hwy 70 (Charlotte Pike in Nashville) runs through here.

The family farm is about 55 acres total, about 8-10 in woods. We generally have hereford cosws and black angus bulls, but we have a few mixed right now. The hereford/angus whiteface calves bring a little more money here. Herefords are a tough breed to withstand 100 degree summers and the near zero degree nights we've had lately, and are pretty disease resistant. The small head of the black angus makes birthing a little less difficult than a full blooded hereford calf. Right now we have about 20 head. We've kept as many as 30 adult head on the land back in the days where we used to actively work to keep the pastures more productive, and also grew our own hay on otherwise fallow land of our relatives. As our relatives passed away and the land was sold off, we started buying more of our hay. Now we are buying all of it. With the droughts we've had the last couple of years, we haven't made a nickel.

[dwmzmm]

We've also got 160 acre place up near Shiner about 100 miles west of here. It's sandy rolling hills and a bit drier than here, in fact we're in drought right now and this is our rainy season! :(
We're currently running about 30 head up there plus calves, but we were up to over 100 We provide the farm as a launch site for the Challenger 498 club out of Katy, TX, adjacent to Houston. It's pretty cool living on the launch field! We have a ball on launch days... :)



Jeff, Shiner has 160 acres?! Heck, we could also use that location for some real HPR launches in addition to the regular model rockets we fly at Needville. From my house, Hearne is about 112 miles, so 100 miles will seem "a lot" closer than Hearne. Maybe
we can bring this subject up at the meeting tomorrow evening....

[luke strawwalker]

I'm about half way between Memphis and Nashville in Huntingdon. Old Hwy 70 (Charlotte Pike in Nashville) runs through here.

The family farm is about 55 acres total, about 8-10 in woods. We generally have hereford cosws and black angus bulls, but we have a few mixed right now. The hereford/angus whiteface calves bring a little more money here. Herefords are a tough breed to withstand 100 degree summers and the near zero degree nights we've had lately, and are pretty disease resistant. The small head of the black angus makes birthing a little less difficult than a full blooded hereford calf. Right now we have about 20 head. We've kept as many as 30 adult head on the land back in the days where we used to actively work to keep the pastures more productive, and also grew our own hay on otherwise fallow land of our relatives. As our relatives passed away and the land was sold off, we started buying more of our hay. Now we are buying all of it. With the droughts we've had the last couple of years, we haven't made a nickel.

Yessir, I feel for ya... buying hay will kill ya in a hurry... :( I bale all my own hay and that's tough enough... I'm running a pair of Ford/New Holland 5610 S's and a Zweegers drum mower, pair of New Holland rolabar rakes, and the first round baler in Fort Bend county, a Ford 552 (built by Gehl but painted Ford blue when they were shortlining their balers) that my granddad bought brand new in ~1980. We've put a lot of bales through that old baler and it's kinda antiquated compared to the new stuff, but it's paid for!!! That's worth a LOT! I used to do a lot of custom baling for neighbors and stuff, for $15/roll to cut,rake, and bale. I had a deal with my Grandmother that I kept the equipment repaired and did all the work baling all the hay for the farm for free, in exchange she bought all the parts and I got to do as much custom work as I wanted/could do. When she passed away a couple years back, Dad torpedoed that deal-- he hit with 'well, you'll bale the farm's hay for free, and if it breaks baling our hay I'll pay, but if you go into the neighbor's patch and it breaks YOU have to buy the parts and fix it." Well, having had to replace all the chains and belts on the old girl and having bearings go out now and then, and having had to replace a $400 roller on it, I decided to just hang it up and quit the custom business, which is what Dad wanted anyway--he's tighter than Grandma, and that's saying something! Anyway, I do our own baling but if we had to buy hay it would absolutely kill us. That's one reason why when I split the herd to put half of them on the Needville place, I left the Shiner place about "half stocked"... for one thing running 100 head on 160 acres in country where it's about 3-4 acres per cow recommended stocking rates was hard on the farm, even though it was only for a couple years, and secondly, when gas was bumping up against $5 a gallon it was going to break us just hauling hay up there from down here, since all our baling equipment and patches are down here, and we get 40 inches of rain on our heavy clay down here, which really grows the grass, compared to 30 inches of rain a year up there on hilly sandy soil, which doesn't grow nearly as much grass. I haul with my half-ton F-150 and a 16 foot flatbed 3 rolls at a time, usually feed 2 per week and store 1 in case of ice storms/bad weather so I don't have to haul ALL the time. Still gas was a killer-- if there's one silver lining to this mess were in it's that gas is down to $1.45... I started running the numbers on the cost of hiring a semi to just haul all I needed up there at once to see if I could save money... Luckily we had a couple wet years and I didn't have to hardly feed at all up there during winter, but then this year has been DRY DRY DRY!!! Both here and there, and we're in our 'monsoon' season now and it's barely rained enough to bring in the clover and ryegrass, and they aren't doing much anyway. Sure hope it's a wet spring! I really feel for you guys out there in TN, AL, and GA, because yall have had it worse and have longer and colder winters.... But it was SO dry here I only got 12 big bales of clover/ryegrass off our rocket field in the spring, and didn't bale again until early November when I got ~40 bales of native bluestem hay off a place up the road I get to take hay off of in exchange for keeping the place cut for him. Win/win.

Could be worse though-- could still be trying to run the fool's errand of growing cotton or grain! With fertilizer and seed prices and boll weevil eradication, along with diesel fuel costs, it was about to break us, so we quit after over 100 years of row cropping on this farm... Grandma didn't like the idea, but then when you have to make a 2 1/2 bale per acre crop to break even, let alone actually make anything, it was getting to be a fool's errand. All the BS coming down the pike from Washington and the boll weevil foundation and crop insurance and all of that just made it not fun anymore... we used to have good years and bad years and some years made money and some years lost, but when it go to where you had to make a BUMPER crop to just break even, it just ain't fun anymore... Too rich for our blood, that's for sure! Makes you sick when seed went from $18 a bag 20 years ago to $100 a bag the last year I planted cotton, for non-genetic engineered non-insecticide treated seed, and fertilizer went from $100 a ton to $600 a ton in that same time frame, and farm diesel went from 50 cents a gallon to nearly 5 dollars.... all the while cotton that was 60 cents in 1970 was still 60 cents a pound in 2002. Thanks to the farm program, Uncle Sam paid for the $12,000 in fencing to put this place in cows... took 5 years of subsidies but better than wasting it on seed or fertilizer which cost more than that for one year... Now with the economy going like it is, I sure am glad I switched it all to cows.

I had a buddy on an ag-chat sight I went over and visited with out at Dixon when I was living up there... I about went stir crazy in an apartment on the east side of Nashville! I would take the pickup out on little 'day trips' just scouting around at the ag equipment dealers, down at Eagleville and other places like that, just seeing the differences in our ag systems and hunting junk equipment deals, and looking at the countryside... I'll say this, Tennessee beats this part of Texas all to pieces for prettiness... we're just flat as a pool table here and open fields broken by overgrown fence rows and smatterings of trees and overgrowth in the creekbottoms. We still go through there at least twice a year-- Betty's best friend from college (BFF) is a nurse up at Joelton north of Nashville and her and her family raise Tennesee Walking Horses... not exactly my thing but still cool...

Take it easy and have a good one and I hope the weather lets up on you guys! OL JR :)

[luke strawwalker]

Jeff, Shiner has 160 acres?! Heck, we could also use that location for some real HPR launches in addition to the regular model rockets we fly at Needville. From my house, Hearne is about 112 miles, so 100 miles will seem "a lot" closer than Hearne. Maybe
we can bring this subject up at the meeting tomorrow evening....

Yep... I thought I had mentioned that to you Dave... don't know what the HPR guys will think (still a drive for them, just in a different direction) but I'd be amenable. Actually it's 90 miles from my house, but that's through Wharton and Garwood and across to 90A to Hallettsville and on to Shiner... you can actually go the entire way on 90A from Rosenberg out there and it's basically the same mileage, just a few more 'bergs' between here and there. The farm is actually about 5 miles this side of Shiner.

What time is the meeting tomorrow?? OL JR :)

[dwmzmm]

What time is the meeting tomorrow?? OL JR :)

Suppose to start at 5 PM, but if past history is any indication, most usually arrive about
30 minutes to an hour afterwards. Should a lot of fun..... :D