Star Dart tube lengths

[Green Dragon]

Al,

Which reference do you have showing the Star Dart with two 3" tubes? I know Vector only used the 5.1" BT-5P -- I had an original kit, so that's a given. The plans I have for the Star Dart only show using a single tube. The scans for the 860 Star Dart match exactly the shape of the fins from my Vector.

The only differences I could determine between the two kits was the shape (and length) of the cones, and the decals and color scheme.

According to John's tube reference list on YORP

http://rocketshoppe.com/info/Estes_Body_Tube_List.pdf

having never had this kit, had assumed maybe a runing change ( ie: newer plans on YORP show one tube ) .

Possibly an error on John ( and co ? ) list, but would be the first one that's cropped up .
( and THANKS GUYS for the excellent and helpfull reference, I have it saved for use , and doso regularly when cutting tubes,saves running to each individual plan, or great for " what can I build with this tube" :)

Same list shows Vector as 5.0" ( and Pulsar, would have to measure my vintage builtup Pulsar, will do that today when out to the 'rents, if I remember ) .

Also of note is a 6" tube,as used on the Hawkeye and red Alert kits, so possibly Star Dart used a 6" tube in later years ?

hmm...

~ AL

note : double posting this in plans so as to get this thread back on topic and the Star Dart thread on it's own .

[Daniel Runyon]

Hey man... guess what... it IS a two piece! Sorry, I should have taken a closer look before saying it was one. I just got it down to measure it for you and saw that. Two 3" pieces, and right near the joint is a little balsa bulkhead with a half of a pie cut out of it.

Let me know if you need any further info that can be gathered from one that's still in existence.

[CPMcGraw]

Hey man... guess what... it IS a two piece! Sorry, I should have taken a closer look before saying it was one. I just got it down to measure it for you and saw that. Two 3" pieces, and right near the joint is a little balsa bulkhead with a half of a pie cut out of it.

Let me know if you need any further info that can be gathered from one that's still in existence.

I just noticed this in the catalogs: Through 1986, the Star Dart is listed with a balsa nose cone, but in 1987 (the last year it was carried) the catalog shows it changed to a plastic nose cone. This is where our current set of plan scans came from. I will have to update the Extended Kit List to show this change in design.

From this data, and from what Al has already said, it does suggest Estes had two very different versions of this kit. The first version used the two-piece tube, with a hollow balsa coupler. This was simplified to a simple nose-blow with a one-piece tube and plastic nose cone; and Estes was able to reduce the parts count by three (the coupler, the screw eye, and one tube).

[John Brohm]

According to John's tube reference list on YORP

http://rocketshoppe.com/info/Estes_Body_Tube_List.pdf

having never had this kit, had assumed maybe a runing change ( ie: newer plans on YORP show one tube ) .

Possibly an error on John ( and co ? ) list, but would be the first one that's cropped up .
( and THANKS GUYS for the excellent and helpfull reference, I have it saved for use , and doso regularly when cutting tubes,saves running to each individual plan, or great for " what can I build with this tube" :)

Same list shows Vector as 5.0" ( and Pulsar, would have to measure my vintage builtup Pulsar, will do that today when out to the 'rents, if I remember ) .

Also of note is a 6" tube,as used on the Hawkeye and red Alert kits, so possibly Star Dart used a 6" tube in later years ?

hmm...

~ AL



Hey Al;

Just noticed this posting now; with all of the traveling I'm way behind on my reading. I'll be returning home later this week so I'll dig into my kits and let you know what I find.

Regarding the point about the Vector and the 5.0" tube, I can assure you that the measurement is quite accurate. One of the things I found when compiling the list is two distinct 5" tubes - one type consistently measured out as 5-3/32" (the BT-5P/5.1" long), and a second that was exactly 5.0", as found in the Vector. I never encountered a measurement in between (unlike other tubes, like the BT-50L, where the length was found to vary over a range), causing me to speculate the possibility that Estes either changed the length of the BT-5P at some point or that the 5.0" tube was a new one, and different than the BT-5P.

Anyway, sorry for the delay in catching your post; let me get home and dig up that Star Dart.

[John Brohm]

According to John's tube reference list on YORP

http://rocketshoppe.com/info/Estes_Body_Tube_List.pdf

having never had this kit, had assumed maybe a runing change ( ie: newer plans on YORP show one tube ) .

Possibly an error on John ( and co ? ) list, but would be the first one that's cropped up .
( and THANKS GUYS for the excellent and helpfull reference, I have it saved for use , and doso regularly when cutting tubes,saves running to each individual plan, or great for " what can I build with this tube" :)

Same list shows Vector as 5.0" ( and Pulsar, would have to measure my vintage builtup Pulsar, will do that today when out to the 'rents, if I remember ) .

Also of note is a 6" tube,as used on the Hawkeye and red Alert kits, so possibly Star Dart used a 6" tube in later years ?

hmm...

~ AL


Hi Al;

Got home earlier today, and managed to track down my Star Dart. I can confirm the tube data that I used in the Book of Tubes. Photos following.

Regarding the Vector, it happened to be in the same storage container. Body tube is exactly 5.00" long; see earlier note about this.

[CPMcGraw]

Hi Al;

Got home earlier today, and managed to track down my Star Dart. I can confirm the tube data that I used in the Book of Tubes. Photos following.

Regarding the Vector, it happened to be in the same storage container. Body tube is exactly 5.00" long; see earlier note about this.

Since that package is still closed up, one presumes it's part of a collection...

If only you could get a good, clear scan of the fin sheet, then we can confirm or deny that they're the same as the Vector...

Thanks for the shot of the parts list...

[John Brohm]

Since that package is still closed up, one presumes it's part of a collection...

If only you could get a good, clear scan of the fin sheet, then we can confirm or deny that they're the same as the Vector...

Thanks for the shot of the parts list...

Hi Craig;

Yes, I'm afraid that Star Dart is part of a collection, so it's not going to be opened for a while. But that doesn't mean we can't find a way to answer your question.

I dug the kit out again to have a second look. The fin stock provided in this particular kit is just a sheet of 1/16" balsa (no die cuts); the Builder was to use the supplied fin template to trace, and then cut out, the fins. I've attached a photo below that shows the template - root edge is 1-1/16" long.

As you know, the Vector was supplied with a 1/16" die cut fin sheet. I took one of the fins from my open Vector kit, and overlaid it on top of the Star Dart fin template (2nd photo). You'll see that the Vector fin has a larger root edge (1-1/4"), and the sweep angles are different. It would appear that the two kits had two entirely different fins.

[CPMcGraw]

Hi Craig;

Yes, I'm afraid that Star Dart is part of a collection, so it's not going to be opened for a while. But that doesn't mean we can't find a way to answer your question.

I dug the kit out again to have a second look. The fin stock provided in this particular kit is just a sheet of 1/16" balsa (no die cuts); the Builder was to use the supplied fin template to trace, and then cut out, the fins. I've attached a photo below that shows the template - root edge is 1-1/16" long.

As you know, the Vector was supplied with a 1/16" die cut fin sheet. I took one of the fins from my open Vector kit, and overlaid it on top of the Star Dart fin template (2nd photo). You'll see that the Vector fin has a larger root edge (1-1/4"), and the sweep angles are different. It would appear that the two kits had two entirely different fins.

Thanks for the scan. That explains why the catalog image looked different. What we have here is two different rocket designs using the same name, catalog number, and decal. Attached is a copy of the simplified, late-model instruction sheet with the fin pattern shown, and a scan of the fin sheet indicated as part of the kit. These images were taken from the set posted on YORP.

I'll try to get a cutting pattern from your scan, John. This gives us a chance to build a closer-to-original Star Dart clone than before.

[CPMcGraw]

John,

See if this outline matches your fin pattern...

[John Brohm]

Thanks for the scan. That explains why the catalog image looked different. What we have here is two different rocket designs using the same name, catalog number, and decal. Attached is a copy of the simplified, late-model instruction sheet with the fin pattern shown, and a scan of the fin sheet indicated as part of the kit. These images were taken from the set posted on YORP.

I'll try to get a cutting pattern from your scan, John. This gives us a chance to build a closer-to-original Star Dart clone than before.


Hi Craig;

I printed your pattern and then scaled it to the root edge dimension (1-1/16") of the template provided in the kit. Your pattern is very close; probably with a little tweaking of the angles you'll be able to get it spot on. Here's the data I took from the template, measuring as accurately as I could:

Root: 1-1/16"
Leading: 1-21/32"
Tip: 15/32"
Trailing: 1-5/32"

Noting that the angle between the Leading Edge and the Tip Chord is precisely 90 degrees.

Regarding your analysis of the situation, I can confirm. I took a die cut fin from my open Vector kit and compared it to the one in the scan as well as the late model template that you provided in the earlier post, and it is evident that the Vector fins and the late model (1987) Star Dart fins are identical. As you say, we have two different models with the same name, same livery, and same kit number. Most likely the change came in 1987, the Star Dart's last year, when the Star Dart switched to the PNC-5A nose cone (same as the Vector). The deception occurs because Estes continued to use the old Star Dart artwork in the catalog, rather than update it. Probably a lot of this has been covered already in the earlier thread (which I can't seem to find!).

Anyway, great sleuth work Craig; glad I was able to help. Means I have to make an update to the Nose and Tube lists!

[Motorace]

I have an older-style Estes Star Dart Kit #0860 with a Balsa nose cone that I started building many years ago but never completed. I'm more than willing to make it available to YORS to help with the scale cloning of this kit... Just tell me if you want me to get it to Buzz Nau or whoever can make the scans (as I cannot). If Buzz will be at MIS on June 2nd, I can give it to him there.

My Star Dart kit came with the two 3" long BT-5 tubes and a balsa nose cone, but the tube coupler is paper-wound instead of balsa. I have the original unused decal sheet, the Header/Display card from the packaging, and the fin template sheet, but I do not have the instruction sheet. The fin template has been neatly and accurately cut out from the template sheet, but can be re-inserted for scanning.

I held my fin template up to the oversized template drawing shown in one of the posts above, and can say that all the angles matched perfectly to my eyes.

When I stopped working on my kit, the balsa fins were already cut out, and aerodynamically shaped and sanded, but I can tell you that the original balsa thickness was greater than 1/16th - I'd have to say that the original fin sheet must have been 3/32nds of an inch thick.

The original streamer material is a finely wrinkled red crepe paper of dimensions 9" by 1" wide.

The original balsa nose cone is 2.5 inches long, with 0,25" inside the tube and 2.25" showing outside the tube.

The elastic shock cord is 1/8th inch wide by 20" long and made of what looks like white rubber (the typical Estes shock cord material of the time).

My launch lug is 11/16th-inch long, but the roughness of one end of it makes me wonder if it might have been cut down slightly.

An earlier posting in this thread mentioned a balsa coupler between the two tubes, but mine happens to have a dark gray coupler made of wound paper, approximately 3/4" long.

I am curious to know if the two tubes were both supposed to be glued to the coupler and the nose cone blown out at ejection, or if the nose cone was to be glued into the upper tube and the two tubes separated at ejection... Does anyone have a readable set of the instructions for the older style kit?

At the time I was building mine, I was intending to make it look like a small two-stage sounding rocket, for which I'd made a small set of extra fins (shaped similar to the Nike Smoke's) that I'd intended to glue to the lower edge of the upper tube.

The display card says this rocket is capable of 1,000-foot altitudes... I expect it would be very easy to lose sight of given its small size.

[John Brohm]

I have an older-style Estes Star Dart Kit #0860 with a Balsa nose cone ...

...

When I stopped working on my kit, the balsa fins were already cut out, and aerodynamically shaped and sanded, but I can tell you that the original balsa thickness was greater than 1/16th - I'd have to say that the original fin sheet must have been 3/32nds of an inch thick.

...

What an excellent summary; if you are able to send the instructions and fin template off to Buzz for scanning, that would be great.

A point of clarification, though, on those fins: my unopened kit clearly has a piece of 1/16" fin stock, and the instructions list the fin stock as BFS-20E. BFS-20 was Estes' designation for 1/16" fin stock. It could be possible that Estes inadvertently mixed up the stock in your kit; I have one or two other kits around here where this had happened with other parts.

Anyway, great report, and hopefully we can find a way to ge that info scanned for YORP.

[CPMcGraw]

What an excellent summary; if you are able to send the instructions and fin template off to Buzz for scanning, that would be great.

A point of clarification, though, on those fins: my unopened kit clearly has a piece of 1/16" fin stock, and the instructions list the fin stock as BFS-20E. BFS-20 was Estes' designation for 1/16" fin stock. It could be possible that Estes inadvertently mixed up the stock in your kit; I have one or two other kits around here where this had happened with other parts.

Anyway, great report, and hopefully we can find a way to ge that info scanned for YORP.

John,

BFS-20 = 1/16"
BFS-30 = 3/32"
BFS-40 = 1/8"

I think there were other designations for greater thicknesses, in 1/32" thick increments. Note how the numbers correspond to the number of 1/32" layers it wound take to build up the final thickness (20 = 2.0 x 1/32 = 1/16...).

[John Brohm]

I have an older-style Estes Star Dart Kit #0860 with a Balsa nose cone that I started building many years ago but never completed. I'm more than willing to make it available to YORS to help with the scale cloning of this kit... Just tell me if you want me to get it to Buzz Nau or whoever can make the scans (as I cannot). If Buzz will be at MIS on June 2nd, I can give it to him there.

My Star Dart kit came with the two 3" long BT-5 tubes and a balsa nose cone, but the tube coupler is paper-wound instead of balsa. I have the original unused decal sheet, the Header/Display card from the packaging, and the fin template sheet, but I do not have the instruction sheet. The fin template has been neatly and accurately cut out from the template sheet, but can be re-inserted for scanning.

.. <great summary snipped>

Sorry; read your earlier post a little too quickly, and realize now that you said you didn't have the instruction sheet. So I've dug my kit out for another look, to see if I can answer a couple of your questions.

My kit has the same JT-5C fishpaper coupler that yours does. But I can't measure the launch lug length, as my sealed kit has no launch lug included! Perhaps the kitter that mistakenly inserted a different balsa fin stock in your kit also forgot to supply mine with a launch lug. Someone in QC must have taken the day off! In any case, most likely the launch lug was the standard 1/8"x 1-1/4" lug that Estes included in the lower impulse kits.

Looking at the exploded diagram on my instructions, it does appear that the separation point was the nose cone. The shock cord was tied around the coupler as the anchor point, then knotted on the usual steel eyelet that was screwed into the nose. The streamer is clearly shown as being attached to the shock cord between the last section of BT and the nose. There was also a small washer included, to be adhered to the nose for nose weight.

Thanks again for the great kit summary;

[John Brohm]

John,

BFS-20 = 1/16"
BFS-30 = 3/32"
BFS-40 = 1/8"

I think there were other designations for greater thicknesses, in 1/32" thick increments. Note how the numbers correspond to the number of 1/32" layers it wound take to build up the final thickness (20 = 2.0 x 1/32 = 1/16...).

Thanks Craig;

The only one I see missing from your list is BFS-10, the 1/32" stock. As you say, there was a direct correlation between the designation and units of 1/32".

Great looking new ship design (with the hard to say name), by the way!

[Motorace]

Thanks again for the great kit summary;

Thank you for your kind words.

I forgot to mention that the original kit also came with:
1) a 3/4" diameter, white, sticky-backed, paper dot for attaching the streamer to the shock cord, and
2) An engine block (that I'd already glued 1.5" up into the bottom of the lower tube. The coupler is not used as an engine block, but you are right that the coupler was used as the shock cord anchor.

I've emailed Buzz and will get my kit to him for scanning.

As for the fin thickness: My fins have had sanding sealer applied and sanded smooth again, but no paint applied. I got out the dial calipers and they all measured between 0.072" and 0.073" thick. That puts them in between 1/16th (0.0625") and 3/32nds (0.09375")... I'm guessing you were right that they are 1/16th built up slightly with the sanding sealer.

p.s.
It's hard to imagine 1/32nd balsa fin stock being strong enough for anything useful - did any kits really use a 1/32nd balsa fin stock? or was it used for building up a ply layer over something else?

[Green Dragon]

Look what I found in my 'junk box' the other day ... :)

Have had this rocket for years, got in a batch of items I bought from a club member getting out of the hobby ( poor guy ) .
funny how three fins and other paint transformes the bird, lol .

I checked with the 'earlier' fin pattern I have and it's real close, note the 3" upper tube ( lower seems cut, not 3" anymore), also long balsa cone.

Guess this one gets restored now, since I already have the Star Dart decals printed.:)

might still have to build another, since I already cut a single 6" tube fore the clone, might find use elsewhere though , would rather build something else, not a second Star Dart - more chance to 'build them all " . lol .

~ AL

[mojo1986]

Motorace.................I just dug out my old set of plans for the #0860 kit (balsa nose cone) and can confirm that the two body tube sections were glued together at the paper coupler (the shock cord was tied to this coupler, by the way, before gluing) and the nose cone was blown out by the ejection charge for recovery.

Joe

[mrhemi1971]

I love all this talk about the star dart kit, I had a couple of them back in the early 80's and I even had my picture in the paper with one on the table I was standing behind. I'd sure like to get another sometime..

[Rocket Doctor]

There are two Star Dart's listed on Ebay now, one at a very reasonable price, check it out........

[Motorace]

Motorace.................I just dug out my old set of plans for the #0860 kit (balsa nose cone) and can confirm that the two body tube sections were glued together at the paper coupler (the shock cord was tied to this coupler, by the way, before gluing) and the nose cone was blown out by the ejection charge for recovery.

Joe

Ever since buiilding my first Quest kit with the Kevlar string tied to the engine block as a way of anchoring the shock cord and protecting it from the hot gases, I've never gone back to the old Estes tri-folded paper anchors that interfere with chute ejection and are hard to remove when the elastic shock cord burns through. I still build Estes' kits, but I've adapted the Quest anchoring system for all my shock cord anchors.

Anyway - it just occurred to me that Estes was on to something when they designed the Star Dart with the two piece tube and anchored the shock cord to the coupler... (since there obviously isn't much room in the BT-5 for a tri-fold paper anchor).

It must have pre-dated the Quest system - may have even inspired it (?), yet it took Quest to make the long term commitment to what I consider to be a superior anchoring system.

[mrhemi1971]

Well, All this talk sbout the star dart made me buy another one! Doc told me about the one on E-Blah and I jumped. I look forward to building that little gem again!

[Rocket Doctor]

Enjoy your kit. a pleasure to help you out.

My PM mailbox is open again.

[blackshire]

The Estes Star Dart #0860 laser-cut fins set is now available from Semroc: http://www.semroc.com/Store/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=2329 This is the fin shape that was used for all of the kit's time in production except for its last year, when the fins from the Vector #0871 (see: http://www.oldrocketplans.com/estes/est0871/est0871.htm ) were substituted. The Star Dart uses a 6" BT-5 body tube (either one-piece or two 3" pieces, depending on the version of the kit).

(The Vector's exactly 5" long BT-5 body tube can be built-up by connecting a 2" length and a 3" length of BT-5 [both of which Semroc carry] with a BT-5 stage coupler.)