Posting material that has a copyright

[astronwolf]

Check out this thread on the other forum if you can.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/doorknob1-vs-doorknob2-variance.157323/

Other than being a discussion of the Estes Doorknob's scaled features, the discussion turned to copyright infringement when "a certain individual who is notorious for posting material with a copyright on the forums" was called out by Peter Alway for posting his material on the forums without permission. This certain individual essentially republished Peter's work, with the forum's help.

I've complained on this forum about this individual's practice of copyright infringement, and as far as I can tell, YORF allows this individual to keep posting. The other forum does too. My opinion is that this practice must cease.

[Gus]

Wolf,

I completely agree.

Steve

[jetlag]

Wolf,

I completely agree.

Steve

This kind of thing would get one kicked out of my University.
It's linked to plagiarism. All he had to do was ask Peter.
A shame.

Allen

[sandman]

Easy solution...Don't be so cheap! Buy Peter's book! :(

I have three copies of ROTW, 2 spiral bound and one hard cover. ;)

I am getting sick of the, "What are you going to do about it." attitude that seems to be so pervasive lately.

[astronwolf]

East solution...Don't be so cheap! Buy Peter's book! :(

That is not a solution to the problem. I have ROTW and the supplements. So what? How is that going to stop someone from posting copyrighted materials, or worse, the forum administrators allowing it?

The problem is some guy posting loads of rocketry stuff that everyone likes to see, but that some of it carries a copyright. There's the problem - we all like looking at the material and we acquiesce. We allow it. And this certain individual loves the attention, the thank-you's, and all the warm fuzzies we get when we look at nice scale data. But this practice has hurt one of our own - a highly respected member of our community. When Peter Alway publicly objected to this behavior I think a line has been crossed.

I've reported this behavior here and on the other forum. No action was taken. I would like to see the forum administrators stop allowing the practice, and even see this one individual censured should he continue posting. A cleanup is long overdue.

[ghrocketman]

There is so much copyrighted material already distributed on the internet it would be nearly impossible to "police".

[tbzep]

There is so much copyrighted material already distributed on the internet it would be nearly impossible to "police".
But not Alway's material. It has got to the point that he has no desire to publish any more material. It isn't because he wasn't "given credit". It's because hundreds of people that might buy his books and supplements now have no reason to do so. If you work hard every week researching and writing the material, then don't get paid for it you eventually get to the point where it makes no sense to work again. Crap...I just described socialism. :eek:

[aeppel_cpm]

But not Alway's material. It has got to the point that he has no desire to publish any more material. It isn't because he wasn't "given credit". It's because hundreds of people that might buy his books and supplements now have no reason to do so. If you work hard every week researching and writing the material, then don't get paid for it you eventually get to the point where it makes no sense to work again. Crap...I just described socialism. :eek:

I would have said 'vulture capitalism' - but neither description makes it right.

That's it's hard to police everywhere doesn't mean policing shouldn't be attempted when the opportunity arises.

That it's out of print is a publisher's choice - it doesn't relinquish the publisher's ownership, nor the author's rights (if they retained any).

I've benefited from some of the material. I've purchased duplicates. Whether I've retained private copies is up to me and my conscious.

Along with cloning rocket designs.

[tbzep]

I would have said 'vulture capitalism' - but neither description makes it right.

That's it's hard to police everywhere doesn't mean policing shouldn't be attempted when the opportunity arises.

That it's out of print is a publisher's choice - it doesn't relinquish the publisher's ownership, nor the author's rights (if they retained any).

I've benefited from some of the material. I've purchased duplicates. Whether I've retained private copies is up to me and my conscious.

Along with cloning rocket designs.
I think many of his supplements are still available even though the book is out of print. I know we can't police everywhere, but we should try to take care of our own. Peter's work is treasured by many of us. My son used my book so much when we were on our wild building spree that I bought him a newer edition of his own. I hope Peter gets inspired again in the future, and I sure hope his books become available again for the ones that have missed out on them.

[aeppel_cpm]

I've appreciated Peter's work, and purchased it.

But I'm going to flip the property right question around, and ask the good rocketeers of YORF - if sharing out of print Peter Alway pages is wrong, please explain how Ye Olde Rocket Plans is different.

[tbzep]

I've appreciated Peter's work, and purchased it.

But I'm going to flip the property right question around, and ask the good rocketeers of YORF - if sharing out of print Peter Alway pages is wrong, please explain how Ye Olde Rocket Plans is different.
He got permission.

[BARGeezer]

Lots of stuff that people are doing is not legal. That is a matter for their own conscious and ethics. Ranges from downloading torrents of books/films/tv shows, scanlated manga, jaywalking, fudging tips on income taxes, not buckling up, yadda, yadda.
Most of us obey the law. Unfortunately there are a few that do not. If they are caught they should suffer the consequences. Just because you CAN do it doesn't mean you SHOULD do it.
BTW a moderator has come down with the hammer on TRF. If the offending party does it again he will be banned. As it should be. Hope the same thing happens here.
As far as old plans on YORP or JimZ's, probably Scott or Jim could best reply with their insights.
There may be mitigating circumstances, IDK.

[aeppel_cpm]

He got permission.

Are you sure?

Quote from the plans page:
We specialize in archiving the plans for some of the lesser-known rocket companies. If you have a gem that has been sitting in your closet or basement for years, why not scan the plans and share it with others?

And Scott - I'm not criticizing, -really-!! I'm just pointing what looks like a glass house.

[astronwolf]

And Scott - I'm not criticizing, -really-!! I'm just pointing what looks like a glass house.
The rights to many, most, maybe almost all - of those plans were owned by Carl McLawhorn, and now, Randy Boadway. There are no plans as far as I know for "enforcing" those rights. And we all know what Carl's feeling on this were.

So that's what the difference is.

It's rocketry folks putting Peter's work into a digital format and distributing it, presumably, for other rocketry folks. So let's not pretend that.... oh... gee whiz... the internet is soooo big ..... and like ..... there's nothing at all that we can do about this. This isn't the same as trying to stop child pornography - we're a small community.

[tbzep]

Are you sure?

Quote from the plans page:
We specialize in archiving the plans for some of the lesser-known rocket companies. If you have a gem that has been sitting in your closet or basement for years, why not scan the plans and share it with others?

And Scott - I'm not criticizing, -really-!! I'm just pointing what looks like a glass house.
Yes. For example, we can go all the way back to 2006 when Scott posted that he had finally been given permission by Bill Stine to post OOP Quest kit plans.

https://oldrocketforum.com/showpost.php?p=13298&postcount=81


.

[aeppel_cpm]

Wonderful.

Given that there's an open invitation to contribute, but no obvious 'posted with permission of', I hope you can see that this topic had the -appearance- of being a glass house.

I did scan through a number of the companies, and few of them do have 'rights reserved by...' notices.

So, it's nice to find that at least some, maybe most/all, of the walls are transparent aluminum rather than glass.

[astronwolf]

So, it's nice to find that at least some, maybe most/all, of the walls are transparent aluminum rather than glass.
Somehow, you're disclosure that "...it's nice..." seems hollow to me, especially right after you attempted to muddy the issue by attacking the old rocket plans. As if the only way that we can help Peter Alway out is if we first must show that we are all pure as the newly driven snow.

Shame on you.

[MarkB.]

But I'm going to flip the property right question around, and ask the good rocketeers of YORF - if sharing out of print Peter Alway pages is wrong, please explain how Ye Olde Rocket Plans is different.
__________________
Charles McGonegal



Charles,

Great question. The follow-up question is: to what is Estes/Centuri/Enerjet asserting a IP right? The names? The designs? The illustrations for the instructions?

Here's a fun example:

The Arcas name is not protected, it being the name for the Little Dipper by way of Greek mythology (part of the original werewolf story).

The sounding rocket design itself belonged to the Atlantic Research Corporation which still exists as far as I know. (correction: now part of AeroJet)

I could be wrong but I seem to recall the design for the model was submitted by someone in a Design of the Month contest and cleaned up and turned into a kit, K-26 Arcas.

So what exactly is Estes'es?

And is the IP a copyright, a patent or a trademark?

Obviously, some of the other kits don't have so many problems, but you see what I'm getting at.

[tbzep]

Wonderful.

Given that there's an open invitation to contribute, but no obvious 'posted with permission of', I hope you can see that this topic had the -appearance- of being a glass house.

I did scan through a number of the companies, and few of them do have 'rights reserved by...' notices.

So, it's nice to find that at least some, maybe most/all, of the walls are transparent aluminum rather than glass.

Spin it. Sure you aren't a politician? Can't stand to be wrong so you splash dirty water on it?

Scott is a stand up guy. He pays for this forum out of his own pocket. He's helped the hobby and all that come here. Estes Industries has a big presence here. You can bet your apple cider that they would come down on him if he didn't have permission. Please stop deflecting an obvious wrong by pointing fingers at others. That's elementary school playground tactics.



.

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Aren't the bulk of these old plans abandoned copyrights?

[aeppel_cpm]

Aren't the bulk of these old plans abandoned copyrights?

I don't think you can abandon a copyright. Lose to others, waive, give away, yes. I think it naturally falls to 'heirs and successors'. I'm quite sure that a publisher choosing not to print material doesn't make it public domain. Trademark, you are obligated to self-police and renew. Upon reflection, I know less about copyright, other than it lasting -much- longer.

I knew that the old Centuri and Estes plans had permission - maybe second hand via Carl. The topic has come up a couple times in just the 7 years I've followed YORF. People's answers to John Boren address those plans.

I didn't know about the Quest plans. I did take a look through some of the rest of the repository and found how Scott has indicated similar grants. And that not all the company collections have them.

I know that cloning from copied instructions raises at least some eyebrows - Don Magness has been quite vocal in at least one past thread.

I did not intentionally throw mud at Scott. I intentionally asked the people harshly criticizing the person referred to at the top of the threads (not questioning validity the criticism itself) to consider the -possibility- of hypocrisy.

I know that I am both faulted and fallible. I try very hard to be self aware. I do ask that of others, too.

[MarkB.]

Copyrights:

If owned by a corporation: 95 years

If owned by an individual: life of the individual + 70 years


My question would be who owns them? Were all of the IP rights sold with the company to the new owners? Was that true every time? Obviously, the Estes and Centuri names were sold and the patents for the motors and motor-making machines. But the 60's designs? The names? The instructions? I wonder.

Abandoned? Did Estes legal send cease and desist letters? Do they still? Does Estes have the money for the IP enforcement actions? Abandon means you know of a violation and do nothing about it.

What did Carl work out with Estes for the XKits?

We really need a lot more information to opine one way or the other.

[tbzep]

I think we need to look at one obvious elephant in the room. The TRF post was one of several made by the same individual of material that could still bring income to Mr. Alway in the form of the still available supplements. Mr. Alway has asked him to stop on more than one occasion and he hasn't. Something should have been done, and to my understanding, finally has. That should be the end of that particular discussion.

As to what is posted on YORS, JimZ's, Ninfinger, etc. None of the material has been posted with ignored objections of the owners of said materials. Quite the opposite has happened. Owners have been asked and have either given their blessing or have told them not to post them and their wishes have been followed. Let's not look a gift horse in the mouth and stir up things. We don't want to cause some owners of the materials to change their minds and demand that this wonderful historical information be removed from our access. Please let this thread die.

[SecretSquirrel]

(snip) Don Magness has been quite vocal in at least one past thread (snip)


That guy's an idiot and you shouldn't pay attention to anything he says.

[jeffyjeep]

Has Peter Alway himself weighed in on this? I don't know if he's on any forums.

[tbzep]

Has Peter Alway himself weighed in on this? I don't know if he's on any forums.
Yes, on TRF. As noted earlier, he asked the individual (and others) several times to stop posting his intellectual property. And just as has been done here, playground excuses started flying.

BTW, Don....nice reply!

[ghrocketman]

Hilarious, Don.

[mbauer]

Use the The red/white triangle with the exclamation, upper right corner on all posts; to notify moderators when a copyrighted item is posted.

Best way to stop the bickering of someone whining when they've been asked to stop.

Red-flags the post for further investigation.

I don't know what I would do if Peter stops printing/selling his books and supplements.

How I design my rockets is by using his stationing and diameters to reproduce as close to scale as possible. Love his brief histories and comments. Peter does us all a service.

One thing is for sure, I would blow my top if any of the designs I've posted here ever show up on the other place. I pulled all my designs from there because I did not like the direction they headed.

YORF is a well run and great place to visit. The red triangle exclamation mark is a tool designed to help keep it that way.

I'm getting ready to start designing some winged models that use the Aerotech RMS Casing 18/20 Blue Thunder Long Burn c3.4t/D2.3T. Absolutely don't want these designs getting posted on the the other website. No I haven't been banned, I just quit going there.

Best regards,
Mike Bauer