A8-3 Ejection Charge

[Joe Wooten]

Anyone else here had problems with almost non-existent ejection charges on A8-3's?

My wife teaches 5th grade class, and I did a launch with them today and out of 18 rockets (Estes make and take) and 36 launches, over 20 failed to eject the parachute. I was using motors from two bulk packs. For the high school physics class (8 rockets, 16 launches) later this afternoon, I had 6 ejection charge failures. I did not even have to be looking at them, as I could plainly hear the weak charge, more of a poof than a pop. I pulled out an old Alpha I had with me and also had a failure to pop the chute out.

I also had one motor during the high school launch that just took the rocket off the launch rod where it fell on the ground, but this one had a good ejection charge as it popped the chute out on the ground. On that one the nozzle had instant erosion to more than double the normal diameter.

[BEC]

Date code on the motors?

I don't fly many A8-3s but don't recall having had this particular issue with them....

[Joe Wooten]

A210321
A210421

[BEC]

Goodness….almost brand new motors. It might be worth an email to Estes’ customer service address (service@estesrockets.com), if for no other reason than to let them know.

[Joe Wooten]

Goodness….almost brand new motors. It might be worth an email to Estes’ customer service address (service@estesrockets.com), if for no other reason than to let them know.

I will be doing that this afternoon.

[Joe Wooten]

Goodness….almost brand new motors. It might be worth an email to Estes’ customer service address (service@estesrockets.com), if for no other reason than to let them know.

Yes, I bought both bulk packs last month at Hobby Lobby

[dwmzmm]

Anyone else here had problems with almost non-existent ejection charges on A8-3's?

My wife teaches 5th grade class, and I did a launch with them today and out of 18 rockets (Estes make and take) and 36 launches, over 20 failed to eject the parachute. I was using motors from two bulk packs. For the high school physics class (8 rockets, 16 launches) later this afternoon, I had 6 ejection charge failures. I did not even have to be looking at them, as I could plainly hear the weak charge, more of a poof than a pop. I pulled out an old Alpha I had with me and also had a failure to pop the chute out.

I also had one motor during the high school launch that just took the rocket off the launch rod where it fell on the ground, but this one had a good ejection charge as it popped the chute out on the ground. On that one the nozzle had instant erosion to more than double the normal diameter.

Wouldn't hurt to file a MESS report for those A8-3's.

[barone]

Wouldn't hurt to file a MESS report for those A8-3's.
Ditto.....
http://www.motorcato.org/

[blackshire]

Anyone else here had problems with almost non-existent ejection charges on A8-3's?

My wife teaches 5th grade class, and I did a launch with them today and out of 18 rockets (Estes make and take) and 36 launches, over 20 failed to eject the parachute. I was using motors from two bulk packs. For the high school physics class (8 rockets, 16 launches) later this afternoon, I had 6 ejection charge failures. I did not even have to be looking at them, as I could plainly hear the weak charge, more of a poof than a pop. I pulled out an old Alpha I had with me and also had a failure to pop the chute out.

I also had one motor during the high school launch that just took the rocket off the launch rod where it fell on the ground, but this one had a good ejection charge as it popped the chute out on the ground. On that one the nozzle had instant erosion to more than double the normal diameter.Wow--talk about careening from one guard rail to the opposite-side one (and beyond)! For several years, Estes--and Estes-made, Apogee Components Medalist competition-grade brand--13 mm motors had loud, frequently model-damaging "shotgun" ejection charges; now, at least some (that particular production run, at minimum) 18 mm Estes A8-3 motors have effectively *no* ejection charges at all...

[astronwolf]

Wow--talk about careening from one guard rail to the opposite-...
A report of a weak ejection charge on YORF is not like Estes "careening from one guard rail to the other." How you exaggerate...

This weekend we're hosting a Cub Scout pack. I will witness ~60-80 A8-3 powered flights. I'll let you all know what the outcome was.

[blackshire]

A report of a weak ejection charge on YORF is not like Estes "careening from one guard rail to the other." How you exaggerate...

This weekend we're hosting a Cub Scout pack. I will witness ~60-80 A8-3 powered flights. I'll let you all know what the outcome was.Having had a few rockets partly RUD-ed (and ruined, by split BT-5 seams) by the overly-powerful mini motor ejection charges (even a Quest Starhawk--designed for 18 mm A6-4 motors, which I flew with a 13 mm motor adapter mount--had its interior quickly well-"toasted"), I wouldn't say it was "exaggeration." Even 13 mm boost-glider competition flyers reported split-open BT-5 motor pod body tubes back then.

[astronwolf]

Having had a few rockets partly RUD-ed (and ruined, by split BT-5 seams) by the overly-powerful mini motor ejection charges (even a Quest Starhawk--designed for 18 mm A6-4 motors, which I flew with a 13 mm motor adapter mount--had its interior quickly well-"toasted"), I wouldn't say it was "exaggeration." Even 13 mm boost-glider competition flyers reported split-open BT-5 motor pod body tubes back then.

You toasted a rocket 25 years ago? And are now comparing it to a report of a bad ejection charge a few months ago?

[mojo1986]

A report of a weak ejection charge on YORF is not like Estes "careening from one guard rail to the other." How you exaggerate...

This weekend we're hosting a Cub Scout pack. I will witness ~60-80 A8-3 powered flights. I'll let you all know what the outcome was.

And the engine production lot numbers too, please

[astronwolf]

Had a Cub Scout launch today and we used up a whole bulk pack of A8-3 motors.

I submitted 3 MESS reports for two very low thrust and one almost non-existent ejection charge. Last August we burned through a whole bulk pack on A8-3 motors with no malfunctions.

The total number of MESS reports submitted for the A8-3 motor for 2022 = 3.

That's it. Just three - the reports that I made.

[dwmzmm]

Had a Cub Scout launch today and we used up a whole bulk pack of A8-3 motors.

I submitted 3 MESS reports for two very low thrust and one almost non-existent ejection charge. Last August we burned through a whole bulk pack on A8-3 motors with no malfunctions.

The total number of MESS reports submitted for the A8-3 motor for 2022 = 3.

That's it. Just three - the reports that I made.


Three out of a whole pack of A8-3's isn't bad.

[ghrocketman]

3 failures out of 24 isn't bad ?
C'mon noww.
That failure rate of 12.5% totally SUCKS.

[astronwolf]

3 failures out of 24 isn't bad ?
C'mon noww.
That failure rate of 12.5% totally SUCKS.
If you count both launches, it is more like 3 failures out of 48. Still disappointing. I've never thought of the A8-3 as a problematic motor, having flown so many of them since the 1970s.

If there is a problem, I wonder why more MESS reports aren't being filed? Even the other example in this thread was not reported.

[Joe Wooten]

If you count both launches, it is more like 3 failures out of 48. Still disappointing. I've never thought of the A8-3 as a problematic motor, having flown so many of them since the 1970s.

If there is a problem, I wonder why more MESS reports aren't being filed? Even the other example in this thread was not reported.

Been too busy, and not too long after that launch I spent a week in the hospital for chicken poop induced pneumonia, then the wife had to have emergency gall bladder removal followed by my mother going into hospice in mid-August and dying Sept 2nd. It was not a really good summer in 2022......

[astronwolf]

Been too busy, and not too long after that launch I spent a week in the hospital for chicken poop induced pneumonia, then the wife had to have emergency gall bladder removal followed by my mother going into hospice in mid-August and dying Sept 2nd. It was not a really good summer in 2022......
Yep... I have for a thousand reasons neglected to fill out more MESS reports than I have ever submitted. It's inconvenient, and other than the summary data being interesting to look at, of dubious value. Hope things get better for you going into 2023.

[MrTwisty]

Currently trying to do a school project with an altimeter and the A8-3's don't seem to have enough energy to push out the added weight with the altimeter. 100% failure rate. Chute failed to eject from tube everytime.
Without the altimeter there's no issues.
This is on multiple rockets so I don't think anything is getting bound up or snagged.

[Joe Wooten]

Currently trying to do a school project with an altimeter and the A8-3's don't seem to have enough energy to push out the added weight with the altimeter. 100% failure rate. Chute failed to eject from tube everytime.
Without the altimeter there's no issues.
This is on multiple rockets so I don't think anything is getting bound up or snagged.

Were they plastic fin can rockets like an Alpha 3?

[frognbuff]

I can't speak to A8-3s, but I lost two rockets last year to non-existent ejection charges - one D12-5 and one C11-3. In both cases, the rocket lawn-darted and the motor was removed with clay end-cap intact. Reported both to Estes, but this is a truly disturbing trend.

[ghrocketman]

When I flew a lot more back in the 70's and 80's, problems like these were VERY FEW and far in-between.
Never had ANY failures to eject nor nozzles spit from casings.
Few catos as well.
With modern technology this should happen even less, NOT worse.

[erik442]

Agreed. I've had more engine issues as a BAR than I ever had as a kid.

[MrTwisty]

Were they plastic fin can rockets like an Alpha 3?
This was using multiple Estes Crossfires

Just had an ejection charge failure with Mr. Twisty and a C11-5.
Luckily the ground was soft after a heavy rain yesterday. Rocket is easily repairable.
Video here.
https://youtu.be/wesVOaQBVBY
For the record I keep my motors in a sealed plastic tub indoors, climate controlled.
When I was setting up this rocket the included "black" plug kept falling out. I knew something was wrong but tried another "black" plug. It fell out so I grabbed a "white" plug from a fresh D12 pack.
I should have known better when the plug failed.....

Date coded J201120

[MrTwisty]

I'll also add that coming off the launch rod Mr.Twisty was squirelly as hell.
I probably lost 25% of altitude from the eradic flight.
It's not the most arrow straight rocket design but it was obviously something else going on.
That was 1 engine from a 2 pack.
I have the matching motor still.
Please advise.

[Ltvscout]

I'll also add that coming off the launch rod Mr.Twisty was squirelly as hell.
I probably lost 25% of altitude from the eradic flight.
It's not the most arrow straight rocket design but it was obviously something else going on.
That was 1 engine from a 2 pack.
I have the matching motor still.
Please advise.
Contact Estes. They should provide you with replacement motors.

Fill out a MESS form.

http://www.motorcato.org/

[MrTwisty]

Ontop of that....
If you saw my "lawndart" thread...
We had 2 motors from the same pack that cata'd 2 feet off the launch rod. I'm glad we run safety protocols because they were fairly violent for 1/2A3-4T's.
Plus atleast 1 more ejection failure (still haven't found that rocket, and it should have arced down to the game board).

[astronwolf]

This was using multiple Estes Crossfires

Just had an ejection charge failure with Mr. Twisty and a C11-5.
Luckily the ground was soft after a heavy rain yesterday. Rocket is easily repairable.
Video here.
https://youtu.be/wesVOaQBVBY


Two things:

1. Looks to me more like you should have used a C11-3. The whole flight was like 5-seconds. It looks like it didn't have time to eject.

2. Show us the front end of the motor with the ejection charge failure. Show us that the clay cap was still intact.

[MrTwisty]

This was the third flight for this rocket.
First 2 were on C11-3's. Video of second launch here:
https://youtube.com/shorts/pUZKWHZB1Dk?feature=share
I'm currently out of C11-3's so thought I would test a 5

This is the spent C11-5 motor.

[ghrocketman]

That was a pretty decent PRANG !

I think you should try the C11-7.

[astronwolf]

This is the spent C11-5 motor.
That's what Estes will want to see.

[MrTwisty]

That's what Estes will want to see.
Hell I'll send Estes the spent engine and it's mate from the package if it would help them eliminate these issues in the future.
I have a pile of obliterated rockets but something like this would be heartbreaking to a kid.

[MrTwisty]

So I have about 120 spent motors of various sizes in a bowl in the garage that I was going to make a wood bee nest out of.
We get failures all the time but I usually just carry on.
I just quickly went through them, looking at just the topside to see if all the clay was ejected.
I put 7 to the side that had a large amount of remnant left.
2 are C6-7's, same date code- C210421
2 are C6-5's, same date code- G210821
1 B4-4- A220322
1 A8-3- E210621
1 1/2A3-4T- G220922
The fact that out of about 120 motors I've fired off in the last year there are matching date codes in motors that look questionable is highly suspect.

[MrTwisty]

Mr. Twisty after repair with a D12-3 and burning debris.
At the end of the video you can see the rocket on the right side, the motor mount assembly with parachute on the left and burning debris in between.
This is an upscaled Tazz so there is no wadding to burn.
Parachute is not singed.

Am I just noticing this more because I'm doing night launches?
Or is it another motor issue?
I don't remember this much burning debris in the past.

https://youtu.be/BJiwUU7zz74

[5x7]

That looks normal for dusk - agree the difference is dramatic.

[blackshire]

When I flew a lot more back in the 70's and 80's, problems like these were VERY FEW and far in-between.
Never had ANY failures to eject nor nozzles spit from casings.
Few catos as well.
With modern technology this should happen even less, NOT worse.Indeed--even a "questionable" old-type Estes "B" single stage motor (it was old enough that it had the original, paper ejection charge plug, and also the old-style label, and it came in one of the original packing tubes) worked perfectly for us. Also:

Its ejection charge was quite loose; we could hear bits of it rattling around inside the casing. My father didn't want to risk a well-built-and-painted rocket on that motor (he built his kits like Mike Hellmund's Estes catalog kits, and like the ones that Centuri had built for their catalog photos--by Leroy Piester, or maybe Douglas Malewicki? [incidentally, *here* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7sy_fLYSPg is a video tour, conducted by Leroy Piester, of his Centuri Rocket Museum]), and:

That Estes motor--Dad had marked it with several question marks--made many trips to and back home from our nearby northern Georgia flying field, but one day my Estes Antares (I believe it was) got "buggered-up" enough (the wind had caught it right off the Tilt-A-Pad's 1/8" rod, and it spiraled horizontally into the ground) that I considered it 'expendable.' I loaded it up with the questionable "B" motor and launched it, and the motor--which had to have had cracks somewhere in its "propellant/delay/ejection charge 'stick'"--worked perfectly!