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View Full Version : URGENT! Help Needed for Girl Scout Rocket Project!


BatPlane
09-16-2007, 02:46 PM
I posted this under the "Current Kit" discussion. I apologize for the double-post and wouldn't do it otherwise but this is an emergency.

I am going to assemble 10 Estes Bullpup 12D #1972 kits with a bunch of Girl Scouts this week. My daughter and I assembled a test rocket last night and she got it together with little help from me.

HERE'S THE PROBLEM:

There are no engine clips! I mean, none in the instructions, none with the kits, none anywhere. We are going to do a test flight this afternoon but I can tell that without a clip, the engine is going to blow out of the back of the rocket (or fall out) as soon as the boost propellant is exausted.

I found the instructions at the link below. It looks like Estes re-released an old kit as the instructions are identical.

Bull Pup 12D Plans (http://www.oldrocketplans.com/estes/est1972/est1972.htm)

Hopefully, I can buy some engine clips and retainer rings for the kits by this Thursday's meeting.

I was expecting engine mounting like what's described in these plans below: Estes Polaris Instructions: (http://www.estesrockets.com/instructions/2174polaris.pdf)


Can anybody tell me what the heck happened with this kit? Any input is appreciated, thanks.

http://www.oldrocketplans.com/estes/est1972/est1972@.gif

A Fish Named Wallyum
09-16-2007, 02:49 PM
It doesn't come with a clip. Just put a wrap of masking tape on the engine before you install it. It's called "friction fitting". I've never had a problem with it. (Although getting the engine out can be an occasional trial.)

BatPlane
09-16-2007, 03:30 PM
Thanks for the rapid response, Bill. Masking tape....hmmm, that sounds simple enough...makes sense, too. That sounds like it'd work OK. Something has to be done because the engine is literally falling out when you turn the rocket upright.

Even with the friction of the tape, isn't the engine going to blow out the back of the rocket instead of blowing the nose cone off?

I don't get it, why didn't this model come with a clip?

I intend to buy some extra clips and secure them with rubber bands (the hobby shop doesn't carry extra mylar bands) & super glue. Is it unnecessary?

Bazookadale
09-16-2007, 03:32 PM
Yes, Friction fit it OR if the motor sticks out past the mount tube by 1/2 inch or more you could put a wrap of 3/4 inch masking tape around the outside of both the motor and tube. In either case make sure the motor won't come out without a strong pull. (Ii'm old enough to remember when estes put this in the engine instructions)

Edit: found this link showing a frition fit http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/rockets/nostalgia/69estp52.html

BatPlane
09-16-2007, 03:51 PM
Awesome old instructions!!! Thanks! The engine on this kit is just about flush with the plastic tail cone so there's no way to tape the engine onto the rocket body if the directions are followed.

Maybe that's why there are no clips since there's not going to be much "give" when the engine is seated or unseated. The plastic tail cone prevents that (unless I cut a slit in it).

Well, I guess the tape is the way to go. Maybe I can tell the kids to not push the engine assembly quite so far into the body tube to allow me to get a grip on the taped up friction-fitted engine with some pliers to yank it out when it's recovered.

Oh yeah, this needs to be addressed as well....."I'd rather die with a burger in my colon then live on Tofu " That's TOO funny, man!

Rocket Doctor
09-16-2007, 04:43 PM
Don't over do it with the tape.
If the engine doesn't stick out far enougk to grab it with a pair of pliars, you can take a dowel going from the front end up against the end of the motor.
The dowel must be able to fit through the engine block without resistance, gently tap, and I mean gently tap the dowel on a sidewalk whilr holding onto the rocket, don/t squeeze the rocket though.

This "friction fit" method was used before engine hooks came along.

Just curious, why did you select the Bullpup, the Baby Bertha would have been a better choice, no friction fitting there.

I requested that the Bullpup instruction be updated, I'm sure alot of the info is acient compared to current methods.

I sent several emails and discussed the issue, and the end results.....you fill in the black.

Good luck with you launch.

BatPlane
09-16-2007, 04:53 PM
Rocket Doctor and everybody,

The Bull Pup was selected simply because it looks cool. I'm probably needlessly panicking because it's going to be tough getting about 10 girls to get the rockets together within a 60-90 minute time frame. I just don't want it to be a disaster for my daughter and her troop.

I test fit an engine and it's pretty snug. I stand corrected that the engine holder is flush with the plastic tail cone but the actual engine itself stick out about a half inch.

Taping the engine to the tail would work, masking tape friction fit will work. It's more snug than I thought so it'll probably work as is.

Thanks for putting my mind at ease, fellas. I should have done a test launch before posting. Thanks. - - Batplane

Solomoriah
09-16-2007, 09:44 PM
If the engine doesn't stick out far enougk to grab it with a pair of pliars, you can take a dowel going from the front end up against the end of the motor. The dowel must be able to fit through the engine block without resistance, gently tap, and I mean gently tap the dowel on a sidewalk whilr holding onto the rocket, don/t squeeze the rocket though.
I have a dowel, 3/8" I think, in my range box; I painted it flourescent orange so as not to lose it in the grass. I use it mostly to push wadding into narrow body tubes (as my fingers are a bit thicker than they used to be...) but it is long enough to drive out friction-fitted engines. I disagree with RD, though... I push them out with slowly increasing steady pressure, holding the body tube carefully to avoid damaging it, and have always had good luck getting them out.

I launched my Bullpup a few weeks back; I wrap tape in a rough spiral starting at the upper end. I put a single wrap on, and try it in the engine tube; if I can push it 3/4 in and pull it out again without difficulty, I put a second layer on; generally, that layer involves less tape. I'm not covering the entire engine, I'm just laying down some tape to make it stay in.

I guess it really takes practice to get it figured out...

Solomoriah
09-16-2007, 09:48 PM
I do agree with RD regarding the Baby Bertha... you just can't find a better choice (at least in the Estes product line) when teaching kids. It's cheap, easy to assemble, and easy to fly (much easier to get the wadding in and the chute packed with a BT-60 than something claustrophobic like a Wizard).

A Fish Named Wallyum
09-16-2007, 10:36 PM
Didn't this rocket require nose weight?

Rocket Doctor
09-17-2007, 06:38 AM
I have a dowel, 3/8" I think, in my range box; I painted it flourescent orange so as not to lose it in the grass. I use it mostly to push wadding into narrow body tubes (as my fingers are a bit thicker than they used to be...) but it is long enough to drive out friction-fitted engines. I disagree with RD, though... I push them out with slowly increasing steady pressure, holding the body tube carefully to avoid damaging it, and have always had good luck getting them out.

I launched my Bullpup a few weeks back; I wrap tape in a rough spiral starting at the upper end. I put a single wrap on, and try it in the engine tube; if I can push it 3/4 in and pull it out again without difficulty, I put a second layer on; generally, that layer involves less tape. I'm not covering the entire engine, I'm just laying down some tape to make it stay in.

I guess it really takes practice to get it figured out...


Going back to the "Good Old Days" when everything was friction fitted, there really wasn't any particular method for getting motors out.

If the motor protruded at least a 1/4" from the end of the body tube,generally, you could use a pair of pliars or vice grips. But, uf the motor is flush, the dowel method would be a choice. Either tapping (gently) or pushing, the bottom line is the removal of the motor.

Also as noted, you need to gently hold the rocket as well, not to damage the body tube or any items located on the tube body.

Also, I have noticed, depending upon which brand of masking tape used, after flight, the tape may be "sticky" due to the motor heat, in this case, after recovery, I would wait until the motor cools down before trying to remove it.

As pointed out, the Baby Bertha would have been a better choice in this case for a "to build" rocket and is very popular with svhool groups as well as scouts and 4-H'ers.

The bullpup is a great looking rocket, but, with you time restraints, your going to pressed for time.

Shreadvector
09-17-2007, 08:31 AM
The bullpup has had problems. The original version had only half the nose weight required for stable flight and this resulted in unstable flights and FIRES when the buring rocket hit the ground.

I notified Estes and they fixed the problem by doubling the nose weight and updating the instructions by adding a slip of paper warning you to add the extra weight.

When the launchables version first appeared in Wal-Mart several years ago, the first batch DID NOT have the extra nose weight! I called Estes to let them know and it was fixed on future production runs, but I don't know what the current instruction sheet says.

I DO know that the OLD version of the instructions posted on the original message in this thread are OLD and INCORRECT (and potentially dangerous - remember the "FIRE" hazard). They are the original instructions before the extra clay was added. Hopefully someone can update those instructions with the extra clay warning.

And those old instructions do show adding masking tape for a fristion fit of the motor. It is fairly clear in those instructions. Again, I don't know what the modern instructions say....

One additional warning (OK, maybe 2 additional warnings):

1) If the glue on the motor mount is not good and strong, when you install the motor with a friction fit, it may rip the motor mount tube from the centering rings or the centering rings from the main body tube.

2) If you do not have the motor block installed correctly and the motor sticks out the back of the rocket too far, it will be unstable and dnagerous. If you find this problem, either dig/tear out the motor block and reglue it in the correct position or retrofit with a mini-motor mount and only fly with A10-3T motors.

Solomoriah
09-17-2007, 12:36 PM
I did notice that the instructions for my Bullpup show an engine hook in some of the drawings; I wonder if it was originally planned but dropped due to the added difficulty of notching the tail cone.

Shreadvector
09-17-2007, 12:49 PM
http://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?t=31314&highlight=gentle+glide

Rocket Doctor
09-17-2007, 12:53 PM
The instructions for the Bullpup have not been updated, and, by placing slips of updates in the kits suggests that they aren't going to update them anytime soo.

I had discussed this in length with the former marketing manager (who is no longer there) about updating not only the Bullpup instructions, but all outdated instructions.

It would be a great undertaking, but, should be done.

Also, depending upon who outlined the unstrucyions, you can tell by the format.

I had done many instructions, the two stage Renegade being my best.

Also, there could be a variety of Bullpup kits from different production runs and years still out there.

Shreadvector
09-17-2007, 01:02 PM
The instructions for the Bullpup have not been updated, and, by placing slips of updates in the kits suggests that they aren't going to update them anytime soo.

I had discussed this in length with the former marketing manager (who is no longer there) about updating not only the Bullpup instructions, but all outdated instructions.

It would be a great undertaking, but, should be done.

Also, depending upon who outlined the unstrucyions, you can tell by the format.

I had done many instructions, the two stage Renegade being my best.

Also, there could be a variety of Bullpup kits from different production runs and years still out there.

Which is why all clubs with libility concerns need a "Safety Advisory":

http://home.earthlink.net/~mebowitz/safety.pdf

Rocket Doctor
09-17-2007, 01:13 PM
Which is why all clubs with libility concerns need a "Safety Advisory":

http://home.earthlink.net/~mebowitz/safety.pdf


The kit instructions need to be CORRECT from the start !!!!
This is how I got involved with instructions in the first place and found many things that needed to be changed.

A slip of paper could get lost or, not even noticed, if the instructions are WRONG they should be changed immediately, for the sake of a couple of pennies, is it worth it.

Also. group leader should be familiar with rocket building and the NAR safety code followed.

I have done many rocket building sessions where tje kids say "I know what I am doing" won't follow the instructor or read the instructions, and when their rocket doesn't look quite like the package or doesn't "work right" they are discouraged and don't want to conyinue in the hobby.

It's the "instant gradification" that has resilted in RTF's. Some good old building techniques with the parents participating is what we need.

Prototypes can't be tested enough as far as I'm concerned, if the release date needs to be extended, so be it, work the bugs out first, then release it.

BatPlane
09-18-2007, 09:51 PM
Didn't this rocket require nose weight?

Yeah, it does...we made one and packed the nose with the clay. Still haven't test flown it yet. The big test is this Thursday....

BatPlane
09-18-2007, 10:04 PM
Awww, man...Guys, I was feeling good until I re-checked the board just now. The Bull-Pup has stability issues?

I was wondering what the deal was with the clay. As I recall, we put it all in there & it's pretty top-heavy.

We'd better test fly that thing. Oh well....we've got 11 total Bull Pups. They look cool, they're going to be assembled this Thursday...now, I just hope we don't impale somebody or start a fire with 'em!!!!!

Solomoriah
09-19-2007, 07:51 AM
If you use all the clay, the Bullpup is plenty stable. I recommend a B engine for first launch, though, as it is a pretty heavy model.

BatPlane
09-19-2007, 08:33 PM
If you use all the clay, the Bullpup is plenty stable. I recommend a B engine for first launch, though, as it is a pretty heavy model.

I tested it today. You're right, it's stable enough. Did 3 launches with A engines, no problem.

Now to see if a bunch of little girls can assemble ten of them tomorrow!!!

Rocket Doctor
09-22-2007, 05:14 PM
Let us know how your building and flying went.

barone
09-23-2007, 07:48 AM
Let us know how your building and flying went.
Yep...need to keep this thread alive until we hear the results. Kinda ambitious project for girl scouts. Not that they can't do it, but the bull pup has alot of stuff to it for a first rocket build.

Leo
09-23-2007, 08:24 AM
Don't forget to make lotsa pictures :)

BatPlane
09-24-2007, 09:43 AM
Fellow Rocketeers,

The girls (ages 11-12) did a fantastic job as I knew they would. It turns out we didn't get a full 90 minutes to work on the rockets so they only got about 80% done.

We got the engine mount assembly with engine block glued into the body tubes and marked the exterior of the tubes for fin and launch lug placement. They also got the shock cord mount glued onto the shock cord when we ran out of time.

I am going to have to go over to the leader's house and glue on all those fins on for them (eight fins / rocket X 9 = 72 fins total!!) to save time. I'll also have to do 9 launch lugs. Since I'm using super-glue to save time, I have to do it. Otherwise, the kids will be super-gluing their fingers to everything.

The girls can make fillets on the fins and launch lugs with some Aliphatic Resin Wood Glue I've got as well as pack all that clay into the nosecones. They are then going to paint them at home however they want.

So far, it's been great! It's so refreshing to have an attentive well-behaved group working on something and making progress!!!!! I'll keep you folks updated. The bull-pup turns out to have been a good choice because all those steps are good for them and they'll be proud of the finished product after all that work. Thanks.

Solomoriah
09-24-2007, 09:54 AM
Why superglue fins when yellow glue works so well? I much prefer to let my kids do it themselves. The "Quest" method (that's where I learned it) works fantastic... lightly glue the fin, stick it on, pull it off, let it dry 15 minutes, put on fresh glue and stick it on for good. The glue grabs in 5 seconds or less if you do it that way, but you still can reposition to get it straight if you need to.

Shreadvector
09-24-2007, 11:09 AM
Super-glue will often (not "always" but "often") be dangerous on Model Rockets like the Bull-Pup. it is brittle and can snap off in motor mounts centering rings, motor mount tubes and launch lugs. It also is very unhealthy for the rubber shock cords.

Part of teaching new builders is showing them how to READ the directions and use the glue that the instructions say to use. That also means allocating enough time to build a rocket.

If the rocket that looks the coolest cannot be built in the allocated time, then select a more appropriate rocket that can be safely built in the allocated time.

Rocket Doctor
09-24-2007, 12:07 PM
Super-glue will often (not "always" but "often") be dangerous on Model Rockets like the Bull-Pup. it is brittle and can snap off in motor mounts centering rings, motor mount tubes and launch lugs. It also is very unhealthy for the rubber shock cords.

Part of teaching new builders is showing them how to READ the directions and use the glue that the instructions say to use. That also means allocating enough time to build a rocket.

If the rocket that looks the coolest cannot be built in the allocated time, then select a more appropriate rocket that can be safely built in the allocated time.



I totally agree with Fred here. For many first timers, READING and FOLLOWING the instrucyions is essential.

Also, reading the instructions and follwing the instructor as well.

Havung enough time to build a rocket and not hurrying helps out as well, instead of you doing all of the gluing, each participant should be doing that under your watchful eye, it's a great learning experience.

I have found in my many years of rocket building and instructing, start with the basics, I had a few new rocketeers that wanted to build a Saturn V as their first rocket because it was "cool", never had any building experience at all.

The most important aspect is that the builders don't become discouraged and never want to build a rocket again. There is a learning curve, as with anything, some grasp it quickly, while other need more time, it's the end result that is most important.

As far as glue goes, for a "common" build, carpenters glue (yellow) is suggested for balas to balsa and balsa to paper. Platic cement is suggested doe plastic to paper/balsa, something that I don't agree with, plastic cement "welds" to plastic pieces together.

Estes suggests carpenters glue over white glue, not every indtruction sheet reflects this, but, I find white glue to be runny compared to carpenters glue.

I haven't tried "gorilla glue
' yet, but, if I believe what is says on the package, that might be an option. Basically, it would be a cost factor.

tfischer
09-24-2007, 12:58 PM
I kind of agree that I'd think the girls should do their own fin gluing. That's a major part of buiding a rocket, and you're kind of taking something away from them by not letting them say "I did this ALL MYSELF!"

As an aside, I kind of wonder what kind of "interesting" paint schemes these Bull Pups will end up with a bunch of preteen girls doing the work (I have visions of Barbie or My Little Pony "Bull Pups" in my head... :) )

-Tim

BatPlane
09-24-2007, 01:17 PM
I knew I was stirring up a hornet's nest with the super-glue thing.

Yes, it might have been better to have used simpler models but I'm way past that...we're using the Bull Pups. It's too late...my bad.

Yes, it'd be better to use the yellow glue instead of super glue on the fins. It'd also be better for the girls to do it all themselves. However, this isn't practical due to a limited amount of time. The goal is to get them together and fly them with the girls doing the majority of the work (they are) over 3 meetings.

The girls are going to use yellow glue for fillets and white glue for the shock cord. I'm hopeful the yellow glue fillets will add additional strength to the fins. I can't realistically envision that big a problem with the super glue. The engine mount assemblies were all done with plain 'ol white elmer's glue per the instructions.

It's not ideal, not perfect, but nobody's getting frustrated so there's no problem. No, we don't have enough time but it should (hopefully) be a happy, fun experience for them.

Yeah, I'm imagining a bunch of pink bull pup missles...cool!

By the way....I didn't see SQUAT in the instructions about exactly what type glue to use except white glue on everything and plastic cement on the tail cone part. (I also realize the instructions pre-date super-glue) I agree with you guys on all points, however this is a compromise due to my mis-judging how long it was going to take.

tfischer
09-24-2007, 01:23 PM
It'd also be better for the girls to do it all themselves. However, this isn't practical. The goal is to get them together with the girls doing the majority of the work (they are).

The girls are going to use yellow glue for fillets and white glue for the shock cord. I'm hopeful the yellow glue fillets will add enough strength to the fins. The engine mount assemblies were all done with plain 'ol white elmer's glue.

Isn't there a way you could dedicate (part of) one more evening to this? It just seems a shame that the one thing that's probably most important (placement of the fins) is not going to be done by the students. It seems like that's the equivalant of teaching someone woodworking by having them cut out all the pieces, but then you nail/glue them together yourself and then they come back and do the finishing. It's just a very important step that they won't be part of...

Not trying to knock what you're doing, though. Hope it all works out for you...

-Tim

Rocket Doctor
09-24-2007, 02:44 PM
I knew I was stirring up a hornet's nest with the super-glue thing.

Yes, it might have been better to have used simpler models but I'm way past that...we're using the Bull Pups. It's too late...my bad.

Yes, it'd be better to use the yellow glue instead of super glue on the fins. It'd also be better for the girls to do it all themselves. However, this isn't practical due to a limited amount of time. The goal is to get them together with the girls doing the majority of the work (they are) over 3 meetings.

The girls are going to use yellow glue for fillets and white glue for the shock cord. I'm hopeful the yellow glue fillets will add enough strength to the fins. The engine mount assemblies were all done with plain 'ol white elmer's glue.

It's not ideal, not perfect, but nobody's getting frustrated so there's no problem. No, we don't have enough time but it should be a happy, fun experience for them.

Yeah, I'm imagining a bunch of pink bull pup missles...cool!

By the way....I didn't see SQUAT in the instructions about exactly what type glue to use except the plastic cement on the tail cone part. (I also realize the instructions pre-date super-glue)


The Bullpup instructions need to be updated.
Long ago the glue was changed over from white glue (runny) to carpenters glue ( yellow)along tme ago,except in special cases, such as using plastic parts or high powered Estes rockets.

Not all packaging reflects the change over, carpenters glue is great for fillets, and, if a fin gets broken off, chances are the fillet will come off as well.

I just repaired two fins on a rocket damaged in transit.

I usually use two layers of carpenters glue fillets, you need to fill in all the spaces and make sure the fillets are smooth, and you can sand the fillets as well.


It was mentioned about a paint scheme, maybe it's Barbie against Bratz, pink with flowers, that would make for an interesting Bullpup .........

barone
09-24-2007, 05:21 PM
Batplane,

Someone more intelligent than I (or is it me) once said "The idea is to have fun". If you and the girls are having fun, who cares if you used Bull Pups instead of Baby Berthas.....who cares if you used CA instead of white/yellow glue......who cares if you are gluing the fins on to speed things up. The important thing is, you are all having fun. We do care that you POST THE PICTURES! Be really great to see what these girls dream up for paint schemes. My niece built a Wizard, painted it pink and stuck cat stickers all over it. Still flys great and she enjoys coming out and flying it. Almost lost it once when she wanted to put a parachute on it instead of a streamer....I told her....but you know how young uns are.....luckly her dad came that day and I didn't have to recover it....missed the tree by 10 feet :eek:

Ltvscout
09-24-2007, 05:40 PM
Batplane,

Someone more intelligent than I (or is it me) once said "The idea is to have fun". If you and the girls are having fun, who cares if you used Bull Pups instead of Baby Berthas.....who cares if you used CA instead of white/yellow glue......who cares if you are gluing the fins on to speed things up. The important thing is, you are all having fun.
Ah, thanks for typing these sentiments for me. Prevents me from having to do so. ;)

Rocket Doctor
09-24-2007, 08:17 PM
Batplane,

Someone more intelligent than I (or is it me) once said "The idea is to have fun". If you and the girls are having fun, who cares if you used Bull Pups instead of Baby Berthas.....who cares if you used CA instead of white/yellow glue......who cares if you are gluing the fins on to speed things up. The important thing is, you are all having fun. We do care that you POST THE PICTURES! Be really great to see what these girls dream up for paint schemes. My niece built a Wizard, painted it pink and stuck cat stickers all over it. Still flys great and she enjoys coming out and flying it. Almost lost it once when she wanted to put a parachute on it instead of a streamer....I told her....but you know how young uns are.....luckly her dad came that day and I didn't have to recover it....missed the tree by 10 feet :eek:



SAFETY,using the proper materials (glue) assembly techniques, the rocket that is geared to the age group and skills.

YES, the hobby is about having fun while learning, but, on the other hand, doing it SAFELY, so the participant can return to enjoy it again.

I know, having written many instructions, and thinking like a kid would. I could have built many kits by cutting corners from experience, but, the instructions need to be wriutten in a proper manner, keeping safety in mind.

When a youngster gets discouraged, they do not continue in the hobby.

We all haven't become BAR's by assuming anything.

The wholr purpose of this forum is to exchange ideas from those that have been in the hobby and relate our experiences so that newbeeis continue in the hobby.

Age level, experience and time constraights must be taken into consideration.

Only building the rocket halfway (minus fins and LL) doesn't give the participant the WHOLE rocketry experience.

I'm sure that the girls have enjoyed their rocket building greatly and had fun in the process, and who cares if the Bullpup goes from white to pink and has flower decals.

Now, launching as a group will complete the experience.

I wish all the participants great success and we all are looking forward to those photos and their smiling faces...............then, it will all be worthwhile.

Good luck and
Best wishes !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

barone
09-24-2007, 09:01 PM
SAFETY,using the proper materials (glue) assembly techniques, the rocket that is geared to the age group and skills.

YES, the hobby is about having fun while learning, but, on the other hand, doing it SAFELY, so the participant can return to enjoy it again.

I know, having written many instructions, and thinking like a kid would. I could have built many kits by cutting corners from experience, but, the instructions need to be wriutten in a proper manner, keeping safety in mind.

When a youngster gets discouraged, they do not continue in the hobby.

We all haven't become BAR's by assuming anything.

The wholr purpose of this forum is to exchange ideas from those that have been in the hobby and relate our experiences so that newbeeis continue in the hobby.

Age level, experience and time constraights must be taken into consideration.

Only building the rocket halfway (minus fins and LL) doesn't give the participant the WHOLE rocketry experience.

I'm sure that the girls have enjoyed their rocket building greatly and had fun in the process, and who cares if the Bullpup goes from white to pink and has flower decals.

Now, launching as a group will complete the experience.

I wish all the participants great success and we all are looking forward to those photos and their smiling faces...............then, it will all be worthwhile.

Good luck and
Best wishes !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Doc..

Safety isn't an issue here, at least not from what I've seen posted, except for the CA that Batplane says he's using because he doesn't want to have them (the girls) glue their fingers together.

Was there a better rocket to use for this group build with first time builders? Yep. We told him that. And that probably leads to the fact that now he's doing part of the builds for the girls. Yep, from our perspective, it takes away from both the learning and building experience since we are BARs. But, then again, if the girls develop an interest in model rocketry, they'll pick those up. For now, they just don't know what they are missing. This was an ambitious task......still is (they ain't in the air yet ;) ). My BAR hat is off to Batplane for making the attempt :) . Our comments couldn't help much for this project since it seems the wheels were in motion prior to posting for help. But, I'm sure with the information he's gotten from the forum, as well as the experience he's gained from working with the girls, he may have a different approach for the next project.

So, Batplane, what kind of launch system are you planning on using ;) ? Sounds like you've got a few weeks to figure out how you want to handle those. And don't forget to take lots of pictures. Build session pictures are good too, but we really like to see them launches :D .

ScaleNut
09-24-2007, 09:32 PM
I tack fins on with ca all the time, followed by yellow glue fillets.

there is absolutly nothing wrong or dangerous with that methoed

barone
09-24-2007, 09:36 PM
I tack fins on with ca all the time, followed by yellow glue fillets.

there is absolutly nothing wrong or dangerous with that methoed
Yep...but I don't think I'd want to hand out some CA to some kids on their first build....not unless I've got a bunch of CA remover ;) I still get CA all over. I think everything is fine and then, all of a sudden, I can't pick up something that somehow got CAed in place.....and it's not even near where I'm using the CA :eek:

ScaleNut
09-24-2007, 09:43 PM
I see ,yes that would be a potential disaster.

BatPlane
09-24-2007, 10:59 PM
Doc..

Safety isn't an issue here, at least not from what I've seen posted, except for the CA that Batplane says he's using because he doesn't want to have them (the girls) glue their fingers together.

Was there a better rocket to use for this group build with first time builders? Yep. We told him that. And that probably leads to the fact that now he's doing part of the builds for the girls. Yep, from our perspective, it takes away from both the learning and building experience since we are BARs. But, then again, if the girls develop an interest in model rocketry, they'll pick those up. For now, they just don't know what they are missing. This was an ambitious task......still is (they ain't in the air yet ;) ). My BAR hat is off to Batplane for making the attempt :) . Our comments couldn't help much for this project since it seems the wheels were in motion prior to posting for help. But, I'm sure with the information he's gotten from the forum, as well as the experience he's gained from working with the girls, he may have a different approach for the next project.

So, Batplane, what kind of launch system are you planning on using ;) ? Sounds like you've got a few weeks to figure out how you want to handle those. And don't forget to take lots of pictures. Build session pictures are good too, but we really like to see them launches :D .

This is more about a dad trying to show his daughter's troop the fun of model rocketry than anything else. It's a familiarization and part of their Aerospace badge. I asked my daughter about the fins...she said the girls won't care if I did it and it'd save time, no problem. Hey...straight from an 11 year old, what can I say?

Here's the reality...the CA glue (yes, I do have acetone in case of disaster) isn't my main concern. What's gonna happen with that, anyway? A fin might come off when it lands? :confused: Get Serious! If a fin rips off the body tube upon launch and causes a hazard, I'd be pretty surprised. I've never seen that happen after hundreds of launches.

The real hazard is wadding and/or a chute packed in too tightly or a too tight nosecone. I've seen rockets fail to separate and bury themselves 8" deep in packed soil! That could be deadly! :eek: Especially with the top-heavy clay packed bull pups. :eek:

Safety is my concern and each rocket will be inspected by me to ensure the recovery system deploys.

On building a well-built rocket, the reality is that half of them are going to get lost so it's probably not an issue. This is about spending time with the kids. I know I'm not doing it perfectly but a lot of these girls do not have dads around to help them.

The launch plan? Well, we're going to pack the wadding and chutes together in unison. Then, we're going to install the engines (A or B) together. Then they're lining up and we're going to launch them one right after another with a single launch pad.

When they're recovered, the girls will know how to re-pack them for the next launch so hopefully it'll continue until they get at least 2 launches in.

I stand by the Bull Pup choice, by the way. :D There were enough complicated steps in there to merit a real sense of accomplishment for those kids....even if I am robbing them of the joy of installing the fins.

Thanks for the input, guys I actually do appreciate it. I know yellow glue is best for fins & wish we could get another meeting in to take the 15 minutes required for each fin but there's no way. The purpose of the initial post was the concern about the lack of engine hooks. Looks like that's not an issue.

I'll try to get some photos but probably shouldn't post the kids' faces. I think I can get one or two of the Moms to take care of that. Stay tuned.

A Fish Named Wallyum
09-24-2007, 11:23 PM
I tack fins on with ca all the time, followed by yellow glue fillets.

there is absolutly nothing wrong or dangerous with that methoed

Ditt-O! :cool:

Solomoriah
09-25-2007, 07:30 AM
... wish we could get another meeting in to take the 15 minutes required for each fin but there's no way.
Okay, I was with you until here. 15 minutes per fin?

BatPlane
09-25-2007, 08:15 AM
Why superglue fins when yellow glue works so well? I much prefer to let my kids do it themselves. The "Quest" method (that's where I learned it) works fantastic... lightly glue the fin, stick it on, pull it off, let it dry 15 minutes, put on fresh glue and stick it on for good. The glue grabs in 5 seconds or less if you do it that way, but you still can reposition to get it straight if you need to.

Yeah, the 15 minutes thing ain't gonna work.

Solomoriah
09-25-2007, 08:22 AM
Yes, but you said 15 minutes per fin. I glue all 8 fins at once; it takes me about 20 minutes to glue them all on. I would expect a novice builder to take up to twice that long... but that's hardly 15 minutes per fin.

BatPlane
09-25-2007, 08:26 AM
Yes, but he said 15 minutes per fin. I glue all 8 fins at once; it takes me about 20 minutes to glue them all on. I would expect a novice builder to take up to twice that long... but that's hardly 15 minutes per fin.

I misunderstood. Thanks for the tip. I'll be doing well just to get 'em together.

BatPlane
10-04-2007, 06:16 PM
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1354/1485597233_24a37bcab2_b.jpg

LONG LIVE THE GIRL SCOUTS OF AMERICA!!!!!

Launch photos are coming in about a month. Thanks for all the tips. Hope the photo isn't too big.

Note the excessive amount of yellow glue....(you fellas got me worried about the inappropriateness of super-glue) I really don't think anything is coming off those rockets ;) The engine mount stuff is all glued in with lots of yellow glue.

foose4string
10-05-2007, 08:08 AM
Super glue to tack on fins, followed by yellow glue fillets works just fine. Nothing wrong with that. Granted they are missing an important step in the building process, but this isn't always a required step in building beginner rocket anyway. Many rockets come with plastic fin cans, or worse... there are the RTF jobs. Already, they have done more construction than many first timers do. No, it's not the best choice for a first rocket. But yes, the Bullpup is an awesome rocket that looks great, and performs very well with the proper nose weight. Just because Estes doesn't mention a certain glue in the instructions doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be used. Estes is not Gospel, they are not perfect by any stretch. Alternative methods can and should be used in many cases! And that's not just in reference to glues. Not deviating from the instructions would also mean not replacing the uber short shock cords, not using anchors other than the tri-fold. Some instances I've even used epoxy *collective GASP from Fred and Doc! ;) * for plastic to paper tube joints. This is something I implemented on my SS1. Works better than the suggested plastic cement IMO, and hardly any weight penalty if used sparingly.

So, while Shred and RocDoc's, etc. opinions are with good intention, they are just that...opinions!

The rockets look great! Enjoy! :)

Solomoriah
10-05-2007, 09:09 AM
I always glue plastic to paper with superglue. I have used epoxy to install thrust rings (I don't have to hurry so much getting it in just the right place). But given the ease of installation of fins with yellow glue, I don't get why you'd do it any other way.

foose4string
10-05-2007, 09:41 AM
I always glue plastic to paper with superglue.

Yep, I've done this also. In fact, just this morning I used Plastic Zap to glue the interior joints of Interceptor pods, then wicked thin CA on the exterior joints. This is plastic to wood, but still, it wouldn't matter either way. I don't use epoxy often, but was mainly pointing out that it's ok to deviate from the suggested Estes method.

Rocket Doctor
10-05-2007, 10:29 AM
The older (not up graded Estes instructions call for white glue) the current instructions call for "carpenter;s glue/yellow).

The instructions are a guigeline, when I wrote instructions, I had to think like a first time builder, I could have built a particular rocket leaving out many steps in the process, but, with instructions you can't do that.

The best example of instructions are for the two stage Renegade, I went into such detail, with sub assemblies, especially for the booster.

I told them (Estes) that the booster was too heavy, but, I can't twist their arms.

I use to have make-it take-it sessions at a 4H fair, right away, the participants "know what they are doing" won't and don't want to follow instructions and if their rocket doesn't look at the sample looks, they become discouraged.

In this case, you have a qualified instructor, with limited build time using an adsvanced kit (1st time build) and the bottom line is the end product.

RTF's are just a stepping stool to get into E2X and so on. I have mentioned before, I had builders who were new to rocketry that wanted to build a Saturn V because it looked "cool", one step at a time.

Best wishes to the girls on their first launch.

BatPlane
10-05-2007, 01:53 PM
Thanks for the input, guys!

Regarding the choice of the Bull Pup (I actually didn't ponder it very long), check this description straight from the Estes website! "...Great first scale model!"Bull Pup (http://www.estesrockets.com/products.php?number=7000)

Maybe they should've added..."but maybe not so great for first time builders! :rolleyes:

tfischer
10-05-2007, 01:55 PM
Thanks for the input, guys!

Regarding the choice of the Bull Pup (I actually didn't ponder it very long), check this description straight from the Estes website! "...Great first scale model!"Bull Pup (http://www.estesrockets.com/products.php?number=7000)

Maybe they should've added..."but maybe not so great for first time builders! :rolleyes:

I think the key word there is "scale model". Most rockets that are good for 1st-time builders are 3/4FNC types and aren't scale models.

But if it worked well for you, don't sweat it!

-Tim

Rocket Doctor
10-05-2007, 02:44 PM
I think the key word there is "scale model". Most rockets that are good for 1st-time builders are 3/4FNC types and aren't scale models.

But if it worked well for you, don't sweat it!

-Tim


I agree, the key world is "scale model" plus the fact that the instruction sheet needs to be updated as well.

Also the fact of having to deal with a kit without an engine hookn doesn't make it any easier.

All that said, as long as the girls enjoyed their rocket building experience, that's what counts.

Now for the launch and photos.....

P.S. Remember the masking tape for the friction fit of the motors.

BatPlane
10-06-2007, 09:18 AM
Moving on forward now, I'm working on a checklist of items to have on hand for a November launch:

1. Masking tape for friction fit (thanks for the reminder)
2. Pliers for pulling out stuck engines
3. A couple of the Estes "Blast Off" flight packs (which should get us 24 A&B engines) - anybody know how I could get just "B" engines in bulk?
4. The controversial super glue ;) for field repairs
5. Launch pad & electron beam - fresh batteries
6. fire extinguisher / bucket of water
7. first aid kit - cell phone (Hopeful we will not need!)

Talk to kids about:
1. NAR model rocket safety code
2. how to repack the wadding and chutes
3. If the thing doesn't separate...don't chase it!

OK, fellas. What am I leaving out?

Rocket Doctor
10-06-2007, 09:42 AM
A dowel to push the motor out (gently) if the pliars don't do it.

A card table to work off of.

An identification method if the rockets are painted the same

A package of spare wadding, just in case

A package or two of spare igniters



A piece of sand paper, or emery board to clean the clips

A piece of steel wool to clean the rods

Clothes pins or masking tape to hold up the rocket off of the blast deflector plate

Lunch and some soft drinks

And the one most needed item, having a good time launching the rockets

Oh yes, the camera to catch the event and post it

Have a great launch

RD

tfischer
10-06-2007, 10:09 AM
[B]anybody know how I could get just "B" engines in bulk?


Yes, Estes sells bulk packs: https://www.discountrocketry.com/educational-bulk-packs-estes-bulk-engine-packs-c-29_40.html

Quest also has their own bulk packs: http://www.questaerospace.com/items.asp?Cc=EDUMOTOR&iTpStatus=1&Tp=

-Tim

BatPlane
10-06-2007, 08:32 PM
Sweet!!!! I like those engine bulk packs since if we put a C in anything, it's history. (lots of trees where I am.)

Thanks for the checklist, more in about a month....

BatPlane
11-29-2007, 09:42 PM
Rocketeers,

Our big (delayed) launch is this weekend. I've got a bulk pack of A engines and a half dozen or so C size engines.

I even built my own bull pup to launch & will send pictures. Thanks for all the input, guys.

Some construction basics for the future: (Let me know if I've got this wrong)
1. Use yellow or white glue as stated in the instructions with yellow (aka wood glue / carpenter's glue) being preferable. 5 minute or an even stronger 30 minute epoxy would be a more durable substitute for most stuff on a rocket that needs white glue even though it's a bit heavier, CORRECT????

2. Aerogloss sanding sealer on balsa fins is OK and something like Kilz or Krylon lacquer primer is OK for body tubes, correct?

3. Krylon acrylic lacquer spraypaint & clear coats are OK as are Testors enamel or lacquer, once everything is primered/sealed, correct?

4. The order things should be painted: butyrate (sanding sealer and/or dope), lacquers, and finally enamels. eg. lacquer can go on over cured butyrate but not vice versa.
Also, lacquer can go on underneath enamels but not over enamels.

Any input is welcome. I've got the bug to build a few really durable ones in the future and it'd be nice to do them right. Thanks.

Rocket Doctor
11-29-2007, 10:00 PM
Good Luck with your launch, and post your results here with phoyos.

Solomoriah
11-29-2007, 10:16 PM
I don't recommend using epoxy for the initial attachment of the fins. Always go with the yellow glue first; if you want an extra-durable rocket, apply 30 minute epoxy fillets after the yellow glue is entirely dry.

Epoxy after CA probably works pretty well, too. But even 5 minute epoxy seems to take FOREVER when you have to hold the fin in place all that time... whereas, done right, yellow glue grabs really fast.

Put a thin bead of yellow glue on the fin root edge, stick it on the rocket (in the right place, of course...) and then pull it right back off. Do this with all of them, and lay them aside propped up so they don't stick to anything. Let them dry for anywhere from 5 to 15 minutes, then apply another thin bead of glue on top of the first, stick the fins on and hold them until the glue grabs. It's really fast this way. Be sure the fin is on straight, then move on to the next. Stand the rocket upright if you can while drying, and let the glue get completely dry before moving on to fillets.

Yellow glue works fine for fillets, but you have to put on multiple coats due to shrinkage. I sometimes use white glue for fillets as it shrinks a lot less, but 30 minute epoxy works great. Be careful you don't let the fillets sag... too heavy a fillet will be prone to sagging regardless of what glue you use. It's best to let the fillets dry horizontally if you can, but it may be difficult to work out the logistics...

barone
11-30-2007, 07:19 AM
Sanding sealer is good for balsa parts. May take longer than using kilz but it dries fast. Usually, by the time I finish applying the sanding sealer on the last fin, the first one is dry enough to start sanding. Depending on how well you sanded the fins before putting them on the model, you may have to apply and sand the sealer three or four times. Deep grain balsa, use the Kilz.

As for the paints, to avoid capatibility issues, I always use enamels. So I can't answer those questions.

So, Solo got number 1, I got number 2.........any more takers? :D

BatPlane
11-30-2007, 08:15 AM
Thanks for the quick responses. I recently built a rocket and attached the fins with nothing but yellow glue. You're correct in that if it's allowed to get a little "tacky" on the tube and fin edge it grabs really fast.

Yellow glue, then epoxy for the fillets on the fins....got it. Thanks. It doesn't happen very often but I hate it when the things come off. Oh yeah, I really love using Aerogloss Sanding sealer on the balsa fins. It seems to make them less prone to chipping, cracking or breaking. A few coats, sanding in between, and the wood grain is gone. I love that stuff.

As far as finishes go, I 'm contemplating doing a 100% dope (butyrate) finish (on everything except the plastic parts) on the next rocket. The ony little obstacle is how to primer the body tube since I've heard that dope over a paint primer finish makes nothing but a mess.

I know it's weird but what would be wrong with using Aerogloss sanding sealer as a primer on the body tube? I do want to fill in the seams on the tube before spraying it with the dope.

Why do I want to do a dope finish on a model rocket? Just for the fun of it!!! Seems like the rocket would look really good, too! Since that stuff is for RC planes, it's probably prettly lightweight.

I know I'm way off the Girl Scout project subject....pictures coming soon.

Solomoriah
11-30-2007, 08:17 AM
I have done most of my recent rockets with rattle-cans, and I have to say that even the cheapest (Wal-Mart Colorplace or Dollar General Miracal) produce nice finishes... assuming you prime and sand (and prime and sand, ad infinitum...) first. BUT... I have had a lot of trouble with compatibility between rattlecan clearcoat and rattlecan paints. Crackling, orange-peel, etc. So I got a cheap airbrush with which I apply Future (or a knockoff). I'm having a hard time finding Future, though, so when I run out I may try thinned acrylic gloss varnish... being water-based, it should not interact with the paint.

Shreadvector
11-30-2007, 08:55 AM
With a rocket that wants to be dangerously unstable (like the Bull Pup - that's why they had to double the nose weight after the original release of the kit), I would not recommend adding the extra aft weight of epoxy. It will shift the c.g. aft and that is not a good idea. Sure, you can add even MORE nose weight, but then your shock cord will be more likely to break or you will get a massive "Estes dent" as the massive nose cone and main body snap back against each other after ejection.

Good luck.

Solomoriah
11-30-2007, 09:25 AM
I always switch to a long elastic shock cord, and usually use a kevlar leader (when I remember to attach it to the engine mount... sometimes I forget).

Shreadvector
11-30-2007, 10:10 AM
I always switch to a long elastic shock cord, and usually use a kevlar leader (when I remember to attach it to the engine mount... sometimes I forget).

In other words, you would recommend folks simply buy Quest kits (available in bulk) instead of buying more expensive Estes kits that require additional parts to turn them into Quest kits (i.e. Kevlar anchor and longer shock cord).

:D

Solomoriah
11-30-2007, 10:27 AM
Except that Quest seems almost as short on imagination as Estes these days. Semroc, for all that they are cloners (and darn good ones, too) are much better equipped that way.

BatPlane
11-30-2007, 02:03 PM
With a rocket that wants to be dangerously unstable (like the Bull Pup - that's why they had to double the nose weight after the original release of the kit), I would not recommend adding the extra aft weight of epoxy. It will shift the c.g. aft and that is not a good idea. Sure, you can add even MORE nose weight, but then your shock cord will be more likely to break or you will get a massive "Estes dent" as the massive nose cone and main body snap back against each other after ejection.

Good luck.

Yeah, I agree. I don't want instability because of extra weight. Actually, I'm kinda burned out on building the bull pups. The things do kind of worry me because they could become some serious "lawn darts" with the spear nosecone and clay packed in there.

On a rocket built for my own pleasure, I'm probably going for some sort of NASA model next (the one in the upper right hand corner of this forum page looks pretty cool!!....what is it? :D ). I'm not a BAR since I never really flew these beauties as a kid but I do want to make one of quality (you know, if I can do it without making the wife mad ;) )

Intruder
11-30-2007, 03:57 PM
[B]Some construction basics for the future: (Let me know if I've got this wrong)[/
1. Use yellow or white glue as stated in the instructions with yellow (aka wood glue / carpenter's glue) being preferable. 5 minute or an even stronger 30 minute epoxy would be a more durable substitute for most stuff on a rocket that needs white glue even though it's a bit heavier, CORRECT????

2. Aerogloss sanding sealer on balsa fins is OK and something like Kilz or Krylon lacquer primer is OK for body tubes, correct?

3. Krylon acrylic lacquer spraypaint & clear coats are OK as are Testors enamel or lacquer, once everything is primered/sealed, correct?

4. The order things should be painted: butyrate (sanding sealer and/or dope), lacquers, and finally enamels. eg. lacquer can go on over cured butyrate but not vice versa.
Also, lacquer can go on underneath enamels but not over enamels.

Any input is welcome. I've got the bug to build a few really durable ones in the future and it'd be nice to do them right. Thanks.

I've never had any lacquer/enamel compatibility problems. My base white coat for my DRM and my dad's 1.6x upscale (http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showthread.php?t=2324) both have enamel bases and lacqer top coats. YMMV though.

CPMcGraw
11-30-2007, 10:07 PM
...On a rocket built for my own pleasure, I'm probably going for some sort of NASA model next (the one in the upper right hand corner of this forum page looks pretty cool!!....what is it? :D )...

If you mean the one in the forum logo, that's the old Centuri Orion, #KC-8. You can download the plans from JimZ (http://www.dars.org/jimz/kc-8.htm).

BatPlane
12-01-2007, 08:49 PM
Twenty eight launches! Not one misfire! Every parachute deployed! Each rocket launched at least twice!!!

Here's a sample photo from the big Girl Scout day today:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2272/2078935287_0520ced42b.jpg

It's just a photo of what they looked like before we launched them. As you can see, everybody totally ignored the painting scheme in the instructions! :D I'll upload some more soon. I believe my wife did get a few action shots of them blasting off the pad.

Thanks for all the advice guys.

pantherjon
12-02-2007, 12:02 AM
Awesome! Some pretty imaginative paint schemes there! I like! :)

Intruder
12-02-2007, 11:30 AM
Very nice. Maybe I need to adopt some of there finishing techniques. :D

BatPlane
12-02-2007, 11:45 AM
Yeah, those were 100% kid paint jobs. They learned how to put in the wadding and repack the parachutes with no assistance. I was really impressed with them. The looks on their faces when they launched was priceless. Most of the girls were afraid they were going to explode or something.

Intruder
12-02-2007, 12:17 PM
Yeah, those were 100% kid paint jobs. They learned how to put in the wadding and repack the parachutes with no assistance. I was really impressed with them. The looks on their faces when they launched was priceless. Most of the girls were afraid they were going to explode or something.

LOL. I *ALMOST * wish my Harpoon (http://forums.rocketshoppe.com/showthread.php?t=2527) would have blown up. That way I could have got it all back. I seriously doubt that the Rocketeaticus photosynthi that took it will give it back in a salvageable condition.

BatPlane
12-02-2007, 02:55 PM
If you mean the one in the forum logo, that's the old Centuri Orion, #KC-8. You can download the plans from JimZ (http://www.dars.org/jimz/kc-8.htm).


Thanks for that information! Centuri Orion...hmmm. The aforementioned Harpoon is a classic as well. Sorry about the rocket-eating tree.

I guess it's true what I tell the kids..."Don't fall in love with your rocket" (kinda hard to follow my own advice, though)