K-23, A Piece of History

[K.M.Knox]

Now here is a piece of history. I am guessing the buyer is NOT planning on putting this one together. That would be one expensive low-power flight, and could you imagine the sinking feeling if it CATO'd... Yikers.

Big Bertha (http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Estes-K-23-Big-Bertha_W0QQitemZ300152147523QQihZ020QQcategoryZ2567QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

I currently have a new kit on the workbench and am still deciding on a finishing scheme. I really like the yellow scheme from the 70's, probably going to be the one I choose. Thanks to other threads on the finishing scheme I have that great summary pic of the different paint schemes. Grabbed the plans for the Super Big Bertha and am thinking of making that a yellow version also, perhaps a cluster even. Now if I am not mistaken that would make it a upscale Ranger correct? The ranger is just a 3 cluster BB unless I am missing something?

[Rocket Doctor]

Now here is a piece of history. I am guessing the buyer is NOT planning on putting this one together. That would be one expensive low-power flight, and could you imagine the sinking feeling if it CATO'd... Yikers.

Big Bertha (http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Estes-K-23-Big-Bertha_W0QQitemZ300152147523QQihZ020QQcategoryZ2567QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

I currently have a new kit on the workbench and am still deciding on a finishing scheme. I really like the yellow scheme from the 70's, probably going to be the one I choose. Thanks to other threads on the finishing scheme I have that great summary pic of the different paint schemes. Grabbed the plans for the Super Big Bertha and am thinking of making that a yellow version also, perhaps a cluster even. Now if I am not mistaken that would make it a upscale Ranger correct? The ranger is just a 3 cluster BB unless I am missing something?



Any kit that is pre Damon in good condition is worth it's weight in gold.

Pre 1969, as long as it doesn't say "Damon" on the package.

There has been many paint schemes over the years for the original Big Bertha, we also had the Maxi Big Bertha, Mini Bertha and the Baby Bertha.

The current paint scheme for the Big and Baby Bertha's STINKS, and I tried to get it changed, but, you can see that didn't happen.

Enjoy your Big Bertha......

[tfischer]

The current paint scheme for the Big and Baby Bertha's STINKS, and I tried to get it changed, but, you can see that didn't happen.


I have to agree with you there. I hate when they completely redo the paint scheme of a rocket. It's ok to tweak it a little in my opinion (like they did the Yankee), but the Bertha looks completel different. Heck, there's probably other pairs of 3/4FNC rockets out there that are supposed to be 'different' rockets but more similar than the current Bertha and the original or mid-80's version...

-Tim

[Doug Sams]

The ranger is just a 3 cluster BB unless I am missing something?Basically, yes. The BB is nose blow while the Ranger separated just above the middle. I think the break was 8" aft of the NC, but look that up to be sure. If you don't break it there, that's OK. I wouldn't hold your feet to the fire on it, but some others might :)

Also, keep in mind the yellow Ranger scheme is a bit different than the yellow BB scheme. Besides the obvious red NC, the roll pattern was a bit different. I have the Ranger paint schemes compiled in a doc, but it's on my personal web pages which I can't reach from work right now :(

If you want it, ping me at doug dot sams at flash dot net and I'll email it to you.

Doug

[tbzep]

I know the Ranger breaks in the middle in order to have a payload section, but that's an awfully small volume for three charges to fill.....pow!

[ghrocketman]

The Ranger is NOT a three engine Big Bertha.
The Big Bertha is a single-engine, no-payload Astron Ranger.
The Ranger existed 4 years prior to the Bertha.

[tbzep]

The Ranger is NOT a three engine Big Bertha.
The Big Bertha is a single-engine, no-payload Astron Ranger.
The Ranger existed 4 years prior to the Bertha.

Did you forget your meds again? :D

[K.M.Knox]

Zonkers, did not mean anything by saying the ranger is a bertha or a bertha is a ranger... Just the similarities is what I was getting at. I'll just have to build both to original spec and then upscale them both to Super spec and the I have both. Course then I have to build the mini's and the baby's and perhaps the micro's and even the itsy-bitty-teeny-weenies just to make sure I got them all. Heck I'll just scale it to all the normal BT sizes and be done with it...

Anyway, I agree with the current schemes on the Berthas and that they stink. That is why I am looking at the early stuff for a good paint scheme. I am not a big fan of black rockets, pretty boring if you ask me. I just finished up a Sizzler build and had to finish it with the 'wild' theme of purple, yellow, and red. Much more interesting then that plain old black.

[Doug Sams]

Zonkers, did not mean anything by saying the ranger is a bertha or a bertha is a ranger... Just the similarities is what I was getting at. But GH is right. The Bertha was born from the Ranger...at least, that's the way I heard it.

Doug

[Royatl]

Now if I am not mistaken that would make it a upscale Ranger correct? The ranger is just a 3 cluster BB unless I am missing something?

Technically, the Big Bertha is a Ranger with a single motor. Vern has related the story of how he designed the Bertha during a building session of the Astron Rocket Club, by modifying a existing Ranger kit. He was initially afraid a single B.8-4 motor would not lift something as large as that. The B.8-4 was somewhat equivalent to current B4-4 and was the highest power single-stage motor Estes had at the time.

[ghrocketman]

I always found the Ranger to be the more interesting of the two with the 3-engine cluster and the payload compartment.
To me, the Big Bertha has always been a "downgraded" Ranger that is just another 3FNC rocket.

[Doug Sams]

I always found the Ranger to be the more interesting of the two with the 3-engine cluster and the payload compartment.
To me, the Big Bertha has always been a "downgraded" Ranger that is just another 3FNC rocket.I understand where you're coming from, but keep in mind that it's Estes' longest running kit having been in continuous production since its inception and being older than even the Alpha, which I consider to be (or used to be) Estes' flagship kit.

What I don't understand is why Estes doesn't try to leverage it even more than they do. Besides the Baby Bertha and Super BB, why haven't they done a 24mm Bertha or a clustered Bertha (ie, Ranger-Bertha)? I don't understand how they can make D and E motors and not offer a Hot-Rod Bertha / Bad-A$$ Bertha / E-Bertha to use them. This kit begs for hot-rodding, and lots of fliers do it, so why wouldn't they attempt to capitalize on that?

Doug

[tbzep]

I understand where you're coming from, but keep in mind that it's Estes' longest running kit having been in continuous production since its inception and being older than even the Alpha, which I consider to be (or used to be) Estes' flagship kit.

What I don't understand is why Estes doesn't try to leverage it even more than they do. Besides the Baby Bertha and Super BB, why haven't they done a 24mm Bertha or a clustered Bertha (ie, Ranger-Bertha)? I don't understand how they can make D and E motors and not offer a Hot-Rod Bertha / Bad-A$$ Bertha / E-Bertha to use them. This kit begs for hot-rodding, and lots of fliers do it, so why wouldn't they attempt to capitalize on that?

Doug


They have done a 24mm Bertha/Ranger sometime in the 80's, IIRC, but I'll look it up. They called it a Ranger. I think the catalog showed a white rocket with blue trim. Gimme a minute to look it up.

Ok....it's looked up. The rocket was blue and yellow instead of white. It had different fins and nosecone than the classic Bertha/Ranger...I'd forgotten about that.

http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/rockets/nostalgia/88est042.jpg

[Doug Sams]

They have done a 24mm Bertha sometime in the 80's, IIRC, but I'll look it up. They called it a Ranger. I think the catalog showed a white rocket with blue trim. Gimme a minute to look it up.I think I know which one you're talking about. It was called a Ranger, but it didn't look like the original. It hnad a pointy nose and different fins, as I recall (from perusing ninfinger, not from having actually seen one in the 80's :)

...

Here it is: http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/rockets/nostalgia/89est34.html

I wanna say this kit also appeared under a different name at one time, but that's a fuzzy memory.

Doug

[Doug Sams]

http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/rockets/nostalgia/88est042.jpgLooks like we both hit the send button at the same time :)

How about that Scorpion? Looks like a variation on the Mongoose. Same fin units, and same self-destruct booster recovery, I imagine :)

Doug

[tfischer]

Oddly the Scorpion is one of my old rockets which I just had returned to my posession (after being stored in a box in Mom's basement for years). It looks reasonably flyable, once I replace the shock cord and a few minor repairs.

I seem to remember it being a good performer.

-Tim

[Royatl]

How about that Scorpion? Looks like a variation on the Mongoose. Same fin units, and same self-destruct booster recovery, I imagine :)

Doug

The fin units and the nose cone both changed slightly between Scorpion and Mongoose (not to mention the horrible graphics styling on the Mongoose). Scorpion used the blow-molded PNC50Y, while the Mongoose used the current Centuri-like replacement.

EDIT: All of a sudden, I got to thinking maybe the Scorpion might've used the laterally two piece version of the 50Y. But John Brohm's list says it uses the Centuri-like cone. I still remember a blow-molded cone on mine.


The Scorpion I had in the 80's flew quite well, and the booster almost always tumbled quickly, to the point of making a buzzing noise coming down.

[dtomko]

That Ranger looks a lot like the Centuri Centurion; I wonder if they used the Centuri fin patterns.

Wasn't the Broadsword another version of a D powered Bertha? Might have been the Supper BB renamed.

Drew

[Ltvscout]

Wasn't the Broadsword another version of a D powered Bertha? Might have been the Supper BB renamed.

Drew
Yup.

[CPMcGraw]

I think I know which one you're talking about. It was called a Ranger, but it didn't look like the original. It hnad a pointy nose and different fins, as I recall (from perusing ninfinger, not from having actually seen one in the 80's :)

...

Here it is: http://www.ninfinger.org/~sven/rockets/nostalgia/89est34.html

I wanna say this kit also appeared under a different name at one time, but that's a fuzzy memory.

Doug

The fins were originally from the Comet and Vigilante. I think in the Ranger plans they're IDd as BFS-78, which came from the #1278 kit number of the Vigilante.

[moonzero2]

I also remember reading somewhere that the BT-60 body tube was specifically created to exactly hold 3 BT-20 engine tubes.

[Solomoriah]

That blue-and-yellow "Ranger" is a BT-55 model, not BT-60.

What, are there no good names left, that they have to recycle them constantly?

[moonzero2]

Correct,... but the old original Ranger is a BT-60,... and it's the BT-60 that was created specifically to exactly hold 3 BT-20 engine tubes.

[tbzep]

I take old E2X rockets that are damaged at our school launches and rebuild them into Mongoose/Scorpion two stagers to use as "throw away" demo rockets. I load them with C6's and put a long crepe streamer in and let one rip each year. The children love them, especially after seeing a boatload of A8-5 powered single stage E2X models fly. I've even recovered a couple of them over the years....that's not bad considering the "A" powered E2X's are pushing the limits of the playground with streamers instead of chutes.

[PaulK]

How about that Scorpion? Looks like a variation on the Mongoose. Same fin units, and same self-destruct booster recovery, I imagine :)Despite the ballistic booster recovery, it is amazing how many times the BT can be stretched back out and re-launched.

[ghrocketman]

The booster tube on the 2-stage Scorpion will last almost indefinitely if "hardened" by soaking it with thin CA prior to painting. Hardening the engine tube doesn't hurt either.
Did that to mine and it is still in fine shape.