Rock-a-Chute

[Weismann]

Hello Rocket Expert(s)!

I was only a casual Estes rocket builder as a kid, but now my kids are getting into it as well and we're having a great time, dusting off some of my old rockets (and building new ones of course...

My question is: I found a dozen or so old unused Rock-A-Chute motors (engines?) in a box in my dad's garage. I assume they have some collector value to someone...I'd be happy to see them in the hands of someone who appreciates them. I'm assuming I should not use them, and I don't really have any interest in collecting them. I'm also not quite sure how I'd ship them to anyone who wants to buy them (or just have them). Any suggestions?

You may e-mail me at joeweismann@gmail.com if you have any ideas. Thanks!

--J

[pantherjon]

First off welcome to YORF!:) You have a pretty good find there with those motors from what I understand! Yes, they are collectibles-not sure what type of 'value' they would bring tho..Am sure a lot of fellas on here would want them..With that I welcome you again to YORF..I am sure someone more knowledgeable will pipe up about you shipping them..If you can it would have to be by 'ground' - that much I DO know...lol

[Royatl]

Hello Rocket Expert(s)!

I was only a casual Estes rocket builder as a kid, but now my kids are getting into it as well and we're having a great time, dusting off some of my old rockets (and building new ones of course...

My question is: I found a dozen or so old unused Rock-A-Chute motors (engines?) in a box in my dad's garage. I assume they have some collector value to someone...I'd be happy to see them in the hands of someone who appreciates them. I'm assuming I should not use them, and I don't really have any interest in collecting them. I'm also not quite sure how I'd ship them to anyone who wants to buy them (or just have them). Any suggestions?

You may e-mail me at joeweismann@gmail.com if you have any ideas. Thanks!

--J

First of all, welcome!

Rock-a-Chutes should be valuable to a collector, but I guess it depends on the age of the box and who made it: whether they were made by Brown Manufacturing, or whether they were pre-Estes Industries motors made by Vern Estes in Denver or whether they were made by Estes Industries after the move to Penrose.

I have a box of A4 Rock-a-Chutes, definitely not Brown Manufacturing, and a couple of months ago at NARAM I asked Vern and Gleda Estes when they thought they might have been made. Vern said he didn't know if he'd be able to tell even if he saw the motors, and that they could've been made as late as '68 (though I think Model Missiles went out of business in '65). Mine look like Estes motors from the mid-60's but the casing material has a different texture. The packaging looks to me like it should be from the early 60's, and the address on the instructions uses the old Zone (not Zip) addressing.

In any case, if you can, post pictures of the box and motors, and if not, describe them as well as possible. I'm sure there are a couple of collectors here who would know their value.

Shipping them to a collector can be problematic, as you have to be an approved shipper (i.e. Estes or Quest, or one of their distributors, etc), or have appropriate documentation from an approved shipper (for instance, if you were sending some motors back to Estes).

[Rocket Doctor]

I have six rock-a-chute motors that have no power designation on them and just say upper stage.

I showed these to Vern who stated that they were made in Denver by Vern, and one way to tell, the motors have the distinct "Estes bans" around each end (circular).

Just like anything else, sometimes it's hard to tell the exact manufacturing date, especially if the time period is long.
For kits, you can get a basic time period if the package "Damon".

[Royatl]

I have six rock-a-chute motors that have no power designation on them and just say upper stage.

I showed these to Vern who stated that they were made in Denver by Vern, and one way to tell, the motors have the distinct "Estes bans" around each end (circular).



Yep, mine have the "Estes bands" but they also do have the power letter and delay, so mine were probably made later than yours, but I suspect not much later.

[Rocket Doctor]

Yep, mine have the "Estes bands" but they also do have the power letter and delay, so mine were probably made later than yours, but I suspect not much later.



Vern had sent to me a chart giving the power designation of rock-a-chute motors. This chart was compiled by G Harry Stine, I think the chart can be found in the early Handbook of Model Rocketry.
I was surprused that my motors didn't have any power markings.

[Weismann]

I'll try to post some pics...not sure how to do that here. Anyway, if it turns out anyone wants them, and can figure out how to ship them, I'd be happy to send them off to an appreciative collector! They do have power markings, various colors and yes, they look much like Estes engines.

[barone]

I'll try to post some pics...not sure how to do that here. Anyway, if it turns out anyone wants them, and can figure out how to ship them, I'd be happy to send them off to an appreciative collector! They do have power markings, various colors and yes, they look much like Estes engines.
Where do you live? If close, I'll make the trip... :D

[Shreadvector]

They should be extremely valuable.

Where are you located? That information is useful for those who might want to drive over and pick them up (after handing you a wad of cash).

[Weismann]

I'd be happy to hand them off to anyone as well...but even if you were travelling my way, you probably couldn't fly with them, right?

Is there an easy way to post a picture up on this forum? Sorry, I'm a novice at this stuff...

[barone]

Heck....who needs to fly. Minneapolis isn't that far.... ;)

[Ltvscout]

Is there an easy way to post a picture up on this forum? Sorry, I'm a novice at this stuff...
When writing a reply or making a post scroll down to the bottom of the page. You'll see a button that says Manage Attachments. Click on that to upload images.

[Royatl]

My question is: I found a dozen or so old unused Rock-A-Chute motors (engines?) in a box in my dad's garage. I assume they have some collector value to someone...

--J

I meant to mention this in my first reply...

At the NARAM auction, Vern Estes offered two or three in a baggie that he said were made at the Denver location (so sometime in 1959 or 1960). Someone paid $220 for them. I paid something like $60-$70 for the box I have.

Might be worth it for you to hold on to them until that deep pockets collector comes to town!

[barone]

I meant to mention this in my first reply...

At the NARAM auction, Vern Estes offered two or three in a baggie that he said were made at the Denver location (so sometime in 1959 or 1960). Someone paid $220 for them. I paid something like $60-$70 for the box I have.

Might be worth it for you to hold on to them until that deep pockets collector comes to town!
Okay Roy....I just offered to drive all that way just to take them off his hands.... ;)

[Weismann]

I'll try to get some pics posted tonight or tomorrow...

[Weismann]

Here are the pics of the engines... let me know what you think!

[Rocketking]

This collection would gather a bunch of bucks at, say, the NARAM auction.

Personally, I can't bring myself to E-bay items from my collection. I think it only shows that some folks have more money than brains. Others are certainly entitled to disagree, however I think that the 'collector' mentality is just another problem to keep shrinks busy...

[Royatl]

Here are the pics of the engines... let me know what you think!

Ok, those are definitely Penrose-produced motors. Puts them somewhere between 1961 and 1965, though as I mentioned, Vern told me they made them for Model Missiles up til 1968.

That upper row looks older, though on my Estes motors, the green ink has faded faster than the red. Have they been damaged or exposed to humidity?

[Rocket Doctor]

The familiar Estes "rings on both ends, Vern told me this was a tip if no other information is present.

[Royatl]

The familiar Estes "rings on both ends, Vern told me this was a tip if no other information is present.

Except that MRI/MPC also had rings on both ends!

In this case the general style -- type face, arrangement of elements, etc -- are a dead giveaway that they are probably mid 60's Estes.

[Weismann]

They were in a plastic bag in cardboard box in a garage in MN for 30 years. Before that they were in Houston... I imagine they were exposed to large temperature extremes, but they seem to be in pretty good shape, and have never been used. That's all I know...

[Weismann]

Hey everyone who's interested...

I was able to successfully send 3 of those motors out via USPS today. SO, if you'd like a few let me know.

I may list them in the For Sale section on this forum too.

Thanks for everyone's advice and information!

--J

[Weismann]

Hey interested parties,

Although I did send a few motors out via USPS yesterday, I see some members advising that more paperwork is probably required to do it "properly." So hopefully I'm not in postal jail by the time you all read this...

Anyway, I thought I'd wait to find out what the actual requirements for shipping these things on the up and up is, before sending out any more. It sounds like it can be done however, so that's good.

I've had a few people inquire about pricing...again, I have no idea. I suppose I could get bids from people and average them out into a fair price for all. OR I could post an Ebay auction (is that legal?) see what they fetch, and roughly base a price on that. Hopefully for everyone there's not some rich weird eccentric out there who'll bid up the price crazily (actually, it would take two such people wouldn't it?).

So...when I find out about shipping, I'll list a set of three in the For Sale section. In the meantime, if anyone has some honest pricing estimate, I'd greatly appreciate it.

I do have everyone's private messages saved, and I'll contact you when I get the shipping info..

Thanks for everyone's help and patience on this!!

--Joe

[ghrocketman]

eBay does not allow model rocket engines to be auctioned; why, I don't know as they are not responsible for the sellers products.

Just another freakin' ignorant MORONIC eBay rule.

[Rocket Doctor]

First of all, you cannot offer for sale any motors or igniters on Ebay, it's against their hazardous materials policy, and if you do, they will pull you listing immediately.

As a matter of fact, if you don't state in your posting for kits, and I mean kits only, someone will complain to Ebay and someone in their office will pull your posting because they have no clue about model rockets, even though Ebay makes lots of $$$$$ for each posting.....

To ship motors legally through the USPS, you need paperwork from a model rocket manufacturer, who usually issue paperwork to wholesalers and retailers, this is for domestic USA shipments only.

As it was mentioned previously, you cannot legally ship motors to and from Canada, period.

And, if you happened to ship motors via the USPS and they didn't go parcel post and they didn't have the proper paperwork attatched to the outside of the carton, who knows what will happen.

I know for sure motors cannot be sent first class/priority or express, they will end up on an aircraftm and with strict homeland security measures, you certainly don't need the postal service and the feds paying you a visit.

I'm not mentioning this to you to scare you off, rather to tell you about the current regulations.

Years ago it was much easier, I can remember the mailing tubes that Estes sent their motors out in.

Unfortunately, after 911, everytrhing has changed.

[Rocket Doctor]

Look up Ebays policy regarding hazardous materials, and, they will also tell you that the usps will not allow motor shipments without the proper paperwork.

Yet, you can go on Ebay under rocketry and purchase chemicals, fuse, fireworks tubes and instruction booklets on how to make all types of stuff. You have to be kidding !!!!

The 49 year track record of model rockets and motors are evident of their safety, just more government regulations to hassle us with.

[mojo1986]

Not that I disagree with your position, but mine is slightly different from yours. The chemicals you buy to make fireworks are relatively less combustible than rocket motors...............you need to mix them in carefully measured proportions before they will burn really well. Fuse is another matter, although it would take a fair quantity of fuse to equal the black powder content of even a single 'A' engine, and in the event of a fire it won't go zipping around in the luggage compartment of the plane. All I know is I wouldn't want to be on a plane that had a serious fire, and having a box full of rocket engines in the hold would just make the situation worse. If I would be uncomfortable on a plane that was shipping rocket engines, then I'm morally obliged not to ship them by air.

Joe

[Rocket Doctor]

Not that I disagree with your position, but mine is slightly different from yours. The chemicals you buy to make fireworks are relatively less combustible than rocket motors...............you need to mix them in carefully measured proportions before they will burn really well. Fuse is another matter, although it would take a fair quantity of fuse to equal the black powder content of even a single 'A' engine, and in the event of a fire it won't go zipping around in the luggage compartment of the plane. All I know is I wouldn't want to be on a plane that had a serious fire, and having a box full of rocket engines in the hold would just make the situation worse. If I would be uncomfortable on a plane that was shipping rocket engines, then I'm morally obliged not to ship them by air.

Joe


We all know what some diesel fuel and fertlizer can do, just ask Timothy McVeigh, oh thats right........

You need not just use chemicals purchased on Ebay to make black powder, and the chemical aren't just the ingreediants for BP.

It's the combination of many things that have changed the landscape in the world today.

In Vietnam, the VC used our unexploded bombs to make land mines, they weren't spending big buck like the US did. The same holds true in Iraq, IED are made from the crudest materials and look at the results.

This hobby was founded on the negatve effects that "basement bombers" had at the time, crude experiments with horrible results, we need not repeat those actions from the late 50's.

It's a whole new world out there that we all need to adapt to.....

[Shreadvector]

Google rec.models.rockets for the term "BIG FINE" and read all about the potential penalty for shipping rocket motors without the proper paperwork/permission. It is a FEDERAL OFFENSE and you should not try to do it and see if you can get away with it.

Hey interested parties,

Although I did send a few motors out via USPS yesterday, I see some members advising that more paperwork is probably required to do it "properly." So hopefully I'm not in postal jail by the time you all read this...

Anyway, I thought I'd wait to find out what the actual requirements for shipping these things on the up and up is, before sending out any more. It sounds like it can be done however, so that's good.

I've had a few people inquire about pricing...again, I have no idea. I suppose I could get bids from people and average them out into a fair price for all. OR I could post an Ebay auction (is that legal?) see what they fetch, and roughly base a price on that. Hopefully for everyone there's not some rich weird eccentric out there who'll bid up the price crazily (actually, it would take two such people wouldn't it?).

So...when I find out about shipping, I'll list a set of three in the For Sale section. In the meantime, if anyone has some honest pricing estimate, I'd greatly appreciate it.

I do have everyone's private messages saved, and I'll contact you when I get the shipping info..

Thanks for everyone's help and patience on this!!

--Joe

[Weismann]

Google rec.models.rockets for the term "BIG FINE" and read all about the potential penalty for shipping rocket motors without the proper paperwork/permission. It is a FEDERAL OFFENSE and you should not try to do it and see if you can get away with it.

I didn't find that passage (if you have the link I'd like to read it), but I did find this on the same site:

* Most single use rockets motors with less than 62.5 grams of
propellant are now classified as UN 1.4s and can be shipped via
UPS (with a HAZMAT fee) or regular parcel post.

Pretty much the same info the hobby shop gave me. So hopefully, with enough explanation, proper marking of the box, going Parcel Post Surface, etc. I'll be ok. Last box I did I wrapped right in front of the Postal Clerk, so no problem there...I think.

rec.models.rockets is a great resource btw, thanks for the tip!

[Shreadvector]

It almost seems like you are joking about shipping motors illegally. Perhaps you only quoted a small section of the motor shipping warning document accidentally?

http://www.nar.org/pdf/shipping_rocket_motors.pdf (http://www.nar.org/pdf/shipping_rocket_motors.pdf)

OK, use "$40,000 fine" instead:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.models.rockets/search?hl=en&group=rec.models.rockets&q=%2440%2C000+fine (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.models.rockets/search?hl=en&group=rec.models.rockets&q=%2440%2C000+fine)


I didn't find that passage (if you have the link I'd like to read it), but I did find this on the same site:

* Most single use rockets motors with less than 62.5 grams of
propellant are now classified as UN 1.4s and can be shipped via
UPS (with a HAZMAT fee) or regular parcel post.

Pretty much the same info the hobby shop gave me. So hopefully, with enough explanation, proper marking of the box, going Parcel Post Surface, etc. I'll be ok. Last box I did I wrapped right in front of the Postal Clerk, so no problem there...I think.

rec.models.rockets is a great resource btw, thanks for the tip!

[Ltvscout]

It almost seems like you are joking about shipping motors illegally. Perhaps you only quoted a small section of the motor shipping warning document accidentally?
Do you have a list of all of the other people besides Jerry Irvine that got busted?

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

Do you have a list of all of the other people besides HE WHOSE NAME SHALL NOT BE SPOKEN that got busted?

Trust me. It's better this way. Kinda like Beetlejuice. :rolleyes:

[Shreadvector]

Trust me. It's better this way. Kinda like Beetlejuice. :rolleyes:

Some Beetlejuices are better than others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beetlejuice_%28entertainer%29 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beetlejuice_%28entertainer%29)

"This is Beetle, he's bad as can and he knows he's the best."[ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beetlejuice_%28entertainer%29#_note-MTV_Article)

[Weismann]

http://www.nar.org/pdf/shipping_rocket_motors.pdf (http://www.nar.org/pdf/shipping_rocket_motors.pdf)


Ok, now THAT is some useful information. I had been unable to find anything about the actual paperwork, so thanks for this. It looks like I had everything right except this part:

Second, the shipper must present to their Postmaster a “Letter of
Authorization”, addressed to them personally from the USPS Manager of Mail Preparations and
Standards (475 L’Enfant Plaza SW, Washington, DC 20260), which authorizes them to enter
these motors into the U.S. Mail. Getting such a letter requires 30-60 days, and requires the
consumer to provide specific information about the motors that he plans to ship, including a
dimensioned drawing and a Material Safety Data Sheet for each motor type.

So, it looks like I'll be applying for my permission slip, and see where that gets me. In the meantime, in case this ever DOES work out... if interested people would send me their own offers for a lot of three motors, I'll sort of average them out to find a fair price for everyone. OK?

Fred, thanks again for your guidance here. I have NO intention of skirting any laws or regulations...

[DWolman]

So I'm just jumping in at the end of this thread, so I may have missed something, but...if you're not a manufacturer and/or vendor, how do you legally mail motors? For example, how does one get some of their motors to NARAM?

[pyrovette20]

Drive

[Rocket Doctor]

So I'm just jumping in at the end of this thread, so I may have missed something, but...if you're not a manufacturer and/or vendor, how do you legally mail motors? For example, how does one get some of their motors to NARAM?


For those who can't drive to NARAM, they will have vendors on site selling motors, I guess.

If you were to fly in and put your motors in your luggage, you most certainly would end up in the newspaper, make the nightly news cast and have the feds all over you.

It's very unfortunate that it has come to this, but, after 911, everything has changed.

This is an excellent question though, because all attendees including myself will not be driving.

As a matter of fact, there should be info regharding NARAM 50 by the middle of Nov at the NAR site www.nar.org

[Shreadvector]

Drive with Sirius Satellite Radio and trunk full of motors and cup holder full of Diet Mt. Dew!!!!:D

Drive

[K.M.Knox]

I'm not sure if you know this or not Weismann but there is a couple of MN rocketry clubs, they might have some members who would be interested in your lot of motors and you would not have to go through all the hassle of shipping regulations and all... There websites are:

http://www.mn-rocketry.net/masa/

http://www.tripolimn.org/

http://www.tsmrockets.com/

I personally have not been to any launches or meetings, I plan to go to the MASA launch on the 27th to start meeting people and maybe get into a club, but that might be a great avenue for you to get the motors out there to collectors.

[K.M.Knox]

And no sooner do I make that last statement then I continue reading new posts and find out NARAM will be in Rochester again for 2008!!! There ya go, just hang on to them until March of next year and make a trip to watch/launch/sell/buy, all that good stuff!

[Initiator001]

And no sooner do I make that last statement then I continue reading new posts and find out NARAM will be in Rochester again for 2008!!! There ya go, just hang on to them until March of next year and make a trip to watch/launch/sell/buy, all that good stuff!

I believe that is NARCON, not NARAM. ;)

Bob

[Rocket Doctor]

If I have it correctly, NARCON is being held in South Carolina and NARAM will definately be held in Virginia from July 26 - Aug 1,2008.

By the middle of Nov, there should be info about NSL, NARCON and NARAM posted on the NAR web page www.nar.org

The Soith Carolina gathering was mentioned here under another thread about a month ago.

[Ltvscout]

If I have it correctly, NARCON is being held in South Carolina and NARAM will definately be held in Virginia from July 26 - Aug 1,2008.
NARCON is in MN again.

[Rocket Doctor]

Scott

Is the NSL in South Carolina?

RD

[Ltvscout]

Scott

Is the NSL in South Carolina?

RD
No clue. I was just correcting your statement about NARCON being on the east coast.

[Rocket Doctor]

I know something was posted here about a contest in South Carolina, I'll try to track it down.

[Rocket Doctor]

Under Mission Control, the NSL (National Space Launch) is being held on May 24 - 26,2008 in Orangeburg South Carolina

[Royatl]

Scott

Is the NSL in South Carolina?

RD


yup.



Roy. Designer of the not-quite-ready-for-prime-time NSL2008.org site.

[Weismann]

Yeah, I plan to be at the 10/27 launch with my kids...."snuggles" told me about it, so you'll have at least a couple of people from this group there. I'll bring some of the Rock-a-Chute motors there in case anyone's interested.

[kurtschachner]

No clue. I was just correcting your statement about NARCON being on the east coast.

Is NARAM being held at NARCON during NSL in MN on the east coast?

;)

[barone]

Is NARAM being held at NARCON during NSL in MN on the east coast?

;)
Oh...now you're really confusing the issue.... :D

[K.M.Knox]

No, no, no. You all have it wrong.

I heard it was NARCON @ NARAM w/ NSL by ROC in MN.

Yeah that was my mistake a few posts ago, I must have been excited about something and got my abbreviations all mixed up. Either way though, there is a few avenues for getting them engines to those who would like them...

A NARCON I will go, A NARCON I will go, hi ho a merry oh A NARCON I will go!

[pantherjon]

:p NARCON= MN
NARAM=VA
NSL=SC

Hopefully I will be able to make NSL '08..It's in my 'backyard' :) Not sure about NARAM tho...Slight possible maybe :)

[Weismann]

OK everyone who's interested in the Rock-A-Chute motors... I'm still waiting for my paperwork from USPS for shipping. BUT, I think I'll plan to make it to NARCON (in Rochester, MN) in March of '08. I've already donated a few motors to be given as door prizes. I'll probably bring the rest down and see who's interested (which will allow me to avoid all the shipping rigamarole anyway). Whatever I don't sell there I'll list here...assuming I ever get that paperwork.

BTW, so far the offers have been hovering in the $30-$40 per motor range.

[lurker01]

OK everyone who's interested in the Rock-A-Chute motors... I'm still waiting for my paperwork from USPS for shipping. BUT, I think I'll plan to make it to NARCON (in Rochester, MN) in March of '08. I've already donated a few motors to be given as door prizes. I'll probably bring the rest down and see who's interested (which will allow me to avoid all the shipping rigamarole anyway). Whatever I don't sell there I'll list here...assuming I ever get that paperwork.

BTW, so far the offers have been hovering in the $30-$40 per motor range.

And that is a REALISTIC price.

I had one guy tell me that a red tube of Estes motors circa 1962 were worth $300 a sealed tube! I laughed and bought up a dozen from an old hobby store inventory for about $30.00 a sealed tube, and that was ONLY because they were part of a 'box lot' of items that included some old trains. After the bidding, the guy walked over too me and I sold him the trains and made some of my money back. Had the trains been separate, I could have walked out of there and spent just $10 - $15 for the whole lot of motors :(

That lot of catalogs that sold on ebay for over $1100.00... I was able to a mass the same lot for under $500 by just being patient, yard sales, estate sales, et al. Found a VG+ condition 1963 Estes catalog in a stack of recipe books that I bought for an amazing sum of $2.50! Yes I am a big spender! Thousands and millions of these catalog and motors were made and are still out there. One just has to get out of the house and spend the time and effort ... God help me if I am in a new town with a couple blocks of antique shops...

Hey let us know if you have anymore left after NARCON, please.

Robert

[snuggles]

By all means, come to NARCON!!!! March 14-16 , Rochester, Mn. The website is just about ready to go. As soon as it is up, you'll know about it.
There's a VERY special guest coming.......
Mark T

[Rocket Doctor]

OK everyone who's interested in the Rock-A-Chute motors... I'm still waiting for my paperwork from USPS for shipping. BUT, I think I'll plan to make it to NARCON (in Rochester, MN) in March of '08. I've already donated a few motors to be given as door prizes. I'll probably bring the rest down and see who's interested (which will allow me to avoid all the shipping rigamarole anyway). Whatever I don't sell there I'll list here...assuming I ever get that paperwork.

BTW, so far the offers have been hovering in the $30-$40 per motor range.



Just a reminder, if you are flyimg....DON'T bring yhe motors with you !!!!

You will end up with a shiny bracelet that's not to your liking.

[snuggles]

Good thought.
Mark

[lurker01]

Just a reminder, if you are flyimg....DON'T bring yhe motors with you !!!!

You will end up with a shiny bracelet that's not to your liking.


What if he uses a box labeled, 'Model Airplane Parts'? :D

Good point Doctor!

Robert

[Weismann]

I'm in Minneapolis...so the flight to Rochester would actually take more time than the drive. I PLAN to come...but if not, maybe Mark would be interested in helping me find some good homes for those motors. (Mark?) It turns out he and my dad live in the same neighborhood.

I promise I won't label the box of motors "model airplane parts" or "illegal homemade explosives" or anything else that might arouse suspicion on the drive down.

[snuggles]

Hi Joe, there's a good chance that there's folks that will drive to NARCON. I don't think there
will be a problem finding homes for the motors.
We'll take care of them at the event.
Mark T

[Rocket Doctor]

No Way.........The "bomb sniffing" dogs, detectors, agents will be all over you and YOU will be arrested.

I had that problem flying back from Colorado Spring after a visit to Estes, my shoes had propellant residue on them and I set off the detector, they X-Rayed my shoes, wanded me and pattet me down......what a hassle.

Many years ago I was flying to Pittsburgh for a science teachers convention for Estes, I had a box full of built up rockets that I was hand carrying, they had the "belt" to put your stuff through, I thought, here it comes, fortunately, they made it through, a big relief.

Even with the proper paperwork, motors have to be shipped ground only, no aircraft allowed, don't take the chance, especially nowadays.

[mojo1986]

Is there anyone from NY State going to NARCON? I would like to buy one of the Rock-A-Chute motors from Joe but I am not going. I am in Canada but frequently drive to Watertown or Syracuse for some shopping. If anyone from NY could pick one up for me that would be great!

Joe

[shockwaveriderz]

I didn't know that Estes Enterprises prior to Estes Industries ever made an Rock-A-Chute labeled model rocket motors. I though there were 2 types of Rock-A-Chutes; 1. the Carlisle hand-made ones, and 2. the Brown Manufactured ones.

We know for example that Estes made its 1st batch of motors for MMI in January 1959, he sold 500 to them. Were these just relabeled and sold as Rock-A-Chutes?

I'm making an important point here: the TRUE Rock-A-Chutes were of the 1st two varities. Once Vern Estes made and sold model rocket motors to MMI, they weren't technically Rock-A-Chutes other than in name or label only.

Another important point to make here is from what I can tell, the hand-made and Brown Manufactured motors had a purely cylindrical nozzle. It was NOT shaped or formed as in the Estes motors, whether labled Rock-A-Chute or not.

I'm not entirely convinced that Vern Estes ever made any Rock-A_Chutes for MMI as Rock-A-Chutes; perhaps thats why they have no Rock-A_Chute labeling on them?

I also know that Orv Carlisle entered into an agreement to provide Brown Manufactured Rock-A-Chutes to Richard Goldsmith at Central Rocket Supply.

G. Harry Stine states that the 1st and ONLY motors used at NARAM-1 in JUly 1959 were Estes Enterprise motors.

HTH

terry dean
nar 16158

[Royatl]

I didn't know that Estes Enterprises prior to Estes Industries ever made an Rock-A-Chute labeled model rocket motors. I though there were 2 types of Rock-A-Chutes; 1. the Carlisle hand-made ones, and 2. the Brown Manufactured ones.

We know for example that Estes made its 1st batch of motors for MMI in January 1959, he sold 500 to them. Were these just relabeled and sold as Rock-A-Chutes?

I'm making an important point here: the TRUE Rock-A-Chutes were of the 1st two varities. Once Vern Estes made and sold model rocket motors to MMI, they weren't technically Rock-A-Chutes other than in name or label only.

Another important point to make here is from what I can tell, the hand-made and Brown Manufactured motors had a purely cylindrical nozzle. It was NOT shaped or formed as in the Estes motors, whether labled Rock-A-Chute or not.

I'm not entirely convinced that Vern Estes ever made any Rock-A_Chutes for MMI as Rock-A-Chutes; perhaps thats why they have no Rock-A_Chute labeling on them?

I also know that Orv Carlisle entered into an agreement to provide Brown Manufactured Rock-A-Chutes to Richard Goldsmith at Central Rocket Supply.

G. Harry Stine states that the 1st and ONLY motors used at NARAM-1 in JUly 1959 were Estes Enterprise motors.

HTH

terry dean
nar 16158

The ones that I have, have all the hallmarks of an Estes-made motor. The casing material itself looks a little different (higher glue percentage and cheaper grade of paper) but the ID is about correct for the time (~0.409"), the ceramic nozzle is bell shaped and the ejection charge cap is manilla paper with a tiny puncture in the center. The printing looks different, looking more like the printing on the outside of the box, but it has the stripes at each end.

The motors Weismann has look like they were made later, after Estes Enterprises got started. The printing on them looks just like the mid 60's Estes motors, but with "ROCK-A-CHUTE" and Model Missiles, Inc in place of "ROCKET ENGINE" and Estes Industries.

At NARAM this year I asked Vern about the motors that I have, and he said he wouldn't be able to tell without looking at them, and even then his memory about them might not be the best, but he also said something about Model Missiles getting motors from them as late as 1967[1] (which sounded odd to me as I thought MMI went OOB by 1965), and he turned and asked Gleda for confirmation about that; she nodded yes.

New member Slipstick said something about Vern bringing motors to the early NARAMs and selling them for a quarter each.


[1]
(pure_speculation)
I find it odd that we don't hear more about MMI or see products from the later period of its existance (the Weismann motors are the most modern MMI objects i've seen). I know I saw a small MMI ad in a 1963 issue of Boys Life, and Stine did mention it as existing as of March 1965 in an appendix in the first edition of the HOMR. (though a quick scan of the book shows no other mention)
It sounds to me like when Model Missiles broke with Stine, the NAR fully endorsed Estes and disowned MMI, and MMI continued limping along on its own for a few years. (/pure_speculation)

[Rocket Doctor]

I have six Rock-A-Chute motors, they were produced by Vern Estes, I showed them to him and he said that he made them. They have no power designation whatsoever on them. Vern had sent to me a chart of the power designation for Rock-A-Chute motors, it was in an early issue of The handbook of Model Rocketry by G. Harry Stine.

If you want to see ads by MMI, get your hands on issues of Amereican Modeler or American Aircraft Modeler, around the late 50's, plenty of ads and stories about the early history of the hobby.

You can find these issues on ebay, sometimes they are not that expensive, while, other times they are.


So, if Vern says he made the motors, he made the motors, also, there were no date codes on the motors as well.

[Rocket Doctor]

The vintage of my motors were around 1962 FYI.

[shockwaveriderz]

The ones that I have, have all the hallmarks of an Estes-made motor. The casing material itself looks a little different (higher glue percentage and cheaper grade of paper) but the ID is about correct for the time (~0.409"), the ceramic nozzle is bell shaped and the ejection charge cap is manilla paper with a tiny puncture in the center. The printing looks different, looking more like the printing on the outside of the box, but it has the stripes at each end.

The motors Weismann has look like they were made later, after Estes Enterprises got started. The printing on them looks just like the mid 60's Estes motors, but with "ROCK-A-CHUTE" and Model Missiles, Inc in place of "ROCKET ENGINE" and Estes Industries.

At NARAM this year I asked Vern about the motors that I have, and he said he wouldn't be able to tell without looking at them, and even then his memory about them might not be the best, but he also said something about Model Missiles getting motors from them as late as 1967[1] (which sounded odd to me as I thought MMI went OOB by 1965), and he turned and asked Gleda for confirmation about that; she nodded yes.

New member Slipstick said something about Vern bringing motors to the early NARAMs and selling them for a quarter each.


[1]
(pure_speculation)
I find it odd that we don't hear more about MMI or see products from the later period of its existance (the Weismann motors are the most modern MMI objects i've seen). I know I saw a small MMI ad in a 1963 issue of Boys Life, and Stine did mention it as existing as of March 1965 in an appendix in the first edition of the HOMR. (though a quick scan of the book shows no other mention)
It sounds to me like when Model Missiles broke with Stine, the NAR fully endorsed Estes and disowned MMI, and MMI continued limping along on its own for a few years. (/pure_speculation)

Roy:

I think Vern and Gleda may be mis-remebering here. I'm almost positive that by 1967 MMI was totally defunct. 1965 seems to be a much better date for their total demise from the marketplace.

Yes indeed, the Estes Enterprise motors that were sold as Rock-A-Chutes for MMI included a fully formed and shaped clay nozzle as opposed to the Carlisle hand-made and Brown Manufactured rock-a-chute motors., which featured simple cylindrical nozzles.

I have a copy of the NAR Certfied Model Rocket listing from 1962-1963 dated 6/63 (with first issue of this report denoted as 5/62) and its lists the following motors:

MMI had A.8-3, A.8-4, B.8-0 and B.8-4 ... I assume these were Estes manufactured and MMI relabled as Rock-A-Chutes perhaps as the report states that " Estes Industries, Inc also makes identical engines for Model Missiles,Inc,., Centuri Engineering Co., Central Rocket Co and other firms."

I don't know if this means that the RDC motors from 62-63 which are on this listing were Estes manufactured or RDC manufactured.

hth

terry dean
nar1 16158

[shockwaveriderz]

I have six Rock-A-Chute motors, they were produced by Vern Estes, I showed them to him and he said that he made them. They have no power designation whatsoever on them. Vern had sent to me a chart of the power designation for Rock-A-Chute motors, it was in an early issue of The handbook of Model Rocketry by G. Harry Stine.

If you want to see ads by MMI, get your hands on issues of Amereican Modeler or American Aircraft Modeler, around the late 50's, plenty of ads and stories about the early history of the hobby.

You can find these issues on ebay, sometimes they are not that expensive, while, other times they are.


So, if Vern says he made the motors, he made the motors, also, there were no date codes on the motors as well.


rockdoc:

could you take some pic and post them?

I have no doubt that these were estes manufactured motors and just called or labled rock-a-chute. keep in mind that "Rock-a-Chute" had evolved from a model rocket toy system to a name brand for motors, for MMI.

Lets see if I can be clearer. Carlisle hand-made rock-a-chute motors were made from approx late 1953 to october 1957, when Carlisle and Stine got Brown to manufacture the rock-a-chute motors for MMI. Brown manufactured these rock-a-chutes from october 1957 till January 1959, when Estes Enterprises started manufacturing the motors for MMI. Carlisle later sold Brown manufactured Rock-a-Chutes to Central Rocket Supply.

terry dean
nar 16158

[shockwaveriderz]

Vern had sent to me a chart of the power designation for Rock-A-Chute motors, it was in an early issue of The handbook of Model Rocketry by G. Harry Stine.

.


I happen to have that 1st ed Handbook of Model Rocketry and it indeed has a NAR Certified Model rocket engines chart dated 3/65. It shows the MMI offerings (Rock-a-chutes made by Estes ) as A.8-3, A.8-4,B.8-0 and B.8-4. (the same I Might add from the listing I have from 62-63. ) So it appears that Estes was still making MMI Rock-A-chutes as late as March 1965. I might add that the 1st ed HBMR was available for sales in August 1965.

This chart also has a typo. If you look at the ProDyne D2-E2 offerings, its says CEC. Notice there's no code for ProDyne - PD?

Terry Dean
NAR 16158

[snuggles]

The motor I have in my hand now has a funnel shaped nozzle and a paper plug on the other end. It does have a small hole in it. Mine has red printing on it and is designated " Rock-a-Chute super type B6( all capital letters)
Mark T

[shockwaveriderz]

The motor I have in my hand now has a funnel shaped nozzle and a paper plug on the other end. It does have a small hole in it. Mine has red printing on it and is designated " Rock-a-Chute super type B6( all capital letters)
Mark T

That's an Estes Enterprises manufactured MMI Rock-A-Chute. These "Super" type B6 were introduced to the public by "Sam, the Spaceman"" with a MMI ad in American Modeler magazine in July 1959. So, potentially its that old.

July 24, 1959 is also significant because its the date that Vern Estes applied for his 'Toy Rocket Motor" patent 3,125,955.

http://www.google.com/patents


July 30, 1959 is also an important date as its the date that G. Harry Stine lost control of MMI to the Keller familiy.

And of course finally, NARAM-1 was held in July 1959 In Denver Colorado and Stine states that the only motors present for NAR use were the Estes Enterprises motors of type A.8-3,A.8-4,B.8-0 and B.8-4.



The NAR TR-14 report I have has a table titled :

"Comparable Types"

Model Missiles,Inc

Type A4 = Type A.8-3
Super Type B6 = Type B.8-4
Upper Stage = Type A.8-4
Lower Stage = Type B.8-0

hth

terry dean
nar 16158

[Bazookadale]

This chart also has a typo. If you look at the ProDyne D2-E2 offerings, its says CEC. Notice there's no code for ProDyne - PD?

Terry Dean
NAR 16158

Are these definitely Prodyne? I thought they might be early Atlas.The '65 Centuri Catalog shows E2.8 engines, the '67 catalog shows Mini Max D2-3. I've never seen a ProDyne Cataog, would love to se a scan.

[shockwaveriderz]

Are these definitely Prodyne? I thought they might be early Atlas.The '65 Centuri Catalog shows E2.8 engines, the '67 catalog shows Mini Max D2-3. I've never seen a ProDyne Cataog, would love to se a scan.

perhaps they were Centuri motors after all! But Prodyne did have all 3 of those model lrocket motors. Take a look a page 48 Figure 3-1 where G. Harry exhibits motors from 1963, I sent a ProDyne catalog, along with NAR TR reports from the early 60's to Ye Old RocketShoppe along time ago along with a bunch of other stuff (primarily old American Modeler magzine G. H. Stine articles many moons ago but I never saw anything posted on his site which is over a year behind schedule. hint hint

Roy Green ? if you would like I can resend this ProDyne info I have. just shoot me an email to shockwaveriderz@hotmail.com . If anybody else would like these collectibles do the same. If I get too many requests I may decide to have you wait to get the ones from Ye Old Rocketshoppe and Scott.


1. the 1/64 Prodyne Catalog
2. ProDyne Price listing 1964
3. Some Letters from G. Harry Stine to Prodyne owner John Rahkonen 63-64
3. NAR TR-20 Report on Prodyne motors from 1963-4

terry dean
nar 16158

[Bazookadale]

perhaps they were Centuri motors after all! But Prodyne did have all 3 of those model lrocket motors.
terry dean
nar 16158
They probably were Prodyne then. My guess was based on the statement at the bottom of the page that Propulsion Dynamics engines testing as of March 1965 - I assumed that meant they weren't tested as of that printing, but you know what happens when you assume. At any rate the chart is incomplete as both Centuri and Prodyne had more motors than listed

Speaking of typos on page 44 Stine lists the size of all Prodyne motors as .702" dia and 2.75" length - the ones on page 48 obviously bigger. Don't know were .702 came from, every Estes and Centuri catalog I've seen stated .690"

[Weismann]

Narcon 2008 is almost here!

I plan to be there on Saturday...Rock-A-Chutes in hand. (A couple of them are being given away as door prizes).

Anyway, talk to me if you're interested...or find Mark Thell. He'll know something.

-Joe

ps. I may repost this under "For Sale".

[snuggles]

The door prize motors will have a little special added........ something!!!
Mark T