Value of 1960s and 1970s rocket engines

[alancantor]

I am preparing to sell my collection of 80 model rocket engines. The oldest is an Estes B14-0 from 1968.

Before putting them up for sale, I am trying to establish, first, whether a market for old engines even exists.

Second, I am interested in what collectors pay for old engines. Some of mine are probably quite rare, so I would like to get a sense of what they might fetch. (For example, I have a 1971 Estes D13-7, a 1974 FSI E5-2, and unopened packages of Aeronautic and Space Company B3-3X.

If the collection is worth less than a certain threshold level, I am thinking that a better use of my time might be not to sell them , but simply drop them in a bucket of water to destroy them!

[Rocket Doctor]

Do you have the proper shipping documents to ship the motors if you sell them?
You certainly can't just put them in the mail stream, and, they could not be shipped if you did have the documents other than parcel post, and, if they are high power motors, that's a wholr different ballgame.

[mojo1986]

Alan...........

Where are you located? Maybe there's an interested buyer who's close enough to you to pick them up.

Joe

[alancantor]

What kind of shipping documents do you need to ship model rocket engines?

I am discovering how complicated it is to ship engines now than it was during the 1970s! What happened?

It may be that whoever buys the collection will have to come and pick them up.

I live in Toronto, Canada.

[pyrovette20]

If they are not high power motors just throw them in a box and mail them. The B-14s are apprx. $10-$15 dollars each . D-13s maybe $15-$20 dollar range . FSI's maybe $20 for a pack of 3.

[tbzep]

I think I'll wait for Fred to respond to that last post :D

[Ltvscout]

I think I'll wait for Fred to respond to that last post :D
I ship motors via parcel post all the time. I just don't mail them priority or first class to ensure they don't go via air.

I also spit on the sidewalk, jaywalk, drive 80 in a 65, launch non-certified motors, etc, etc.

[ghrocketman]

Gotta agree with EVERYTHING LTVscout says in his above post, although I have never sent motors to anyone.
I'm always buying them ! :D
Probably at least 25% of all the motors I fly on a regular basis are old no-longer certified ones.
I too enjoy a good jaywalk, sidewalk spit, and the occasional triple digit mph blast on the freeway in 70mph zones in my Cadillac STS and Chevrolet Z28.
I rarely if ever am driving under 80mph in 70 zones, but everybody knows in Michigan that highway speed "limits" are actually "suggestions" :p
Quite frankly I don't care how motors are shipped to me as long as I get them in the condition I expect....the shipper assumes all the liability from what I have been able to ascertain from the regs.
Last I checked none of us were shipping cops.
I will say that I have heard penalties for shipping motors without proper authorization can be SEVERE and that most postal workers don't know the true regs other than the one requiring proper "ground shipment only" labeling....most have never heard of the special authorization to ship requirements.

[Rocket Doctor]

What kind of shipping documents do you need to ship model rocket engines?

I am discovering how complicated it is to ship engines now than it was during the 1970s! What happened?

It may be that whoever buys the collection will have to come and pick them up.

I live in Toronto, Canada.

LITIGATION is/was the driving factor for the regulations.
Surface mailing only, with all the homeland security and "bomb sniffing" machines, you never know what the "feds" will do, and, I don't think it if worth the risk to find out.

I will post the usps regulations later on here.
FYI The box needs a placard stating that the package contains "class C toy propellant devices" along with other paperwork.
Motors are not allowed to go priority , because they would probably end up on an aircraft, and, if anyone knows how it is to go through security at the airports, can only imagine how it would be if any motors would be detected.

I'm only bringing this up so OUR rocketry community doesn't get hassled by the usps and the feds.

[A Fish Named Wallyum]

launch non-certified motors,

Recently? :rolleyes:

[mojo1986]

Canada Post does not permit shipment of rocket motors under ANY circumstances. In fact, Canada Post 'ground' shipment is not really by ground................it is just a lower class of service that has to wait until any other air shipments get on the plane first, then it gets on the plane. There is NO WAY that I would ever ship a model rocket engine out of Canada. It would have to be pick up only.

Joe

[Ltvscout]

Recently? :rolleyes:
Well, no, not recently. But when I was launching I did. ;)

[reduc]

Canada Post does not permit shipment of rocket motors under ANY circumstances. In fact, Canada Post 'ground' shipment is not really by ground................it is just a lower class of service that has to wait until any other air shipments get on the plane first, then it gets on the plane. There is NO WAY that I would ever ship a model rocket engine out of Canada. It would have to be pick up only.

Joe

Absolutely true, since 1982, when the TDG Act (Transport of Dangerous Goods) came into effect. The only way to ship motors between canadian locations is by a courier company who will accept HAZMAT shipments. As for shipping to another country, that's an whole different matter. On top of that, in Canada, we're not allowed to use motors that are not on the ERD approved list. So, old motors are unusable here.

[pantherjon]

So, I guess, from Canada(Toronto), IF you were to ship them to someone in the US..Go down to Buffalo and ship 'em there..Not that far of a drive

[alancantor]

So, I guess, from Canada(Toronto), IF you were to ship them to someone in the US..Go down to Buffalo and ship 'em there..Not that far of a drive


Are there restrictions on transporting model rocket engines across the border? I used to do it in the 1970s when attending modroc competitions and conventions in the USA, and thought nothing of it.

[Rocket Doctor]

Are there restrictions on transporting model rocket engines across the border? I used to do it in the 1970s when attending modroc competitions and conventions in the USA, and thought nothing of it.


Alot has happened since 1970, like 911, so many restrictions now.
There are restriction within the continental USA.

Wholesalers and retailers have an "umbrella" coverage that has been issued from a model rocket/motor manufacturer. This includes a letter issued by the usps,, through the manufacturer. Certain placards must be on the package as well as signed documents that state the motors were sent in compliance with the letter issued by the isps.

And certainly, no motors can be shipped aboard a aircraft at all, ground shipment only under the guidelines of the usps.

[shockwaveriderz]

Scott:

thats some kind of confession in a public forum, whoa.....

TMPI Too Much Public Information...




terry dean
nar 16158

[caheaton]

In my opinion, it's a BAD IDEA for anyone to ship rocket motors without the proper paperwork in place. To do otherwise only invites further regulation of the hobby. Suppose some motors were detected in the mail stream (due to a terrorist scare, fire or whatever). The question would be raised "how did they get in there?!" Next thing you know there will be calls for Congress to "do something about this 'problem' " and we will find ourselves with new, more restrictive regulations in place. (Which would only serve to make motors even more expensive and / or difficult to obtain).

So, is it worth the risk of losing your (our) hobby to ship a few motors? Do what I've been doing with my old motors...use them in your rockets! (It's still okay to fly old motors at non NAR events...they can even be flown at NAR events if you join the program they have going on to test the viability of old motors). Besides...these motors were born to fly...not to sit around in a box! ;)

Craig

[mojo1986]

Craig................

Amen to that!

Joe

[alancantor]

With all these restrictions making it nearly impossible to get them to someone else, it pretty much tells you what they are worth :)

I don't think it is impossible, but clearly it is not a straightforward process. I am awaiting callbacks from several people now.

If it becomes too much of a bother, I will stipulate that the buyer pick them up... which means either that I will sell the engines locally, or that a lucky person is going to be visiting Toronto!

[mojo1986]

Alan, I have a brother who makes a trip into Toronto just about every Friday. I know he wouldn't have a problem picking up some engines if you could make arrangements at your end. If so, why don't you email me with a list of what you have including quantities and prices expected.

Joe

[e-t-rocketeer]

In my opinion, it's a BAD IDEA for anyone to ship rocket motors without the proper paperwork in place. To do otherwise only invites further regulation of the hobby. Suppose some motors were detected in the mail stream (due to a terrorist scare, fire or whatever). The question would be raised "how did they get in there?!" Next thing you know there will be calls for Congress to "do something about this 'problem' " and we will find ourselves with new, more restrictive regulations in place. (Which would only serve to make motors even more expensive and / or difficult to obtain).

So, is it worth the risk of losing your (our) hobby to ship a few motors? Do what I've been doing with my old motors...use them in your rockets! (It's still okay to fly old motors at non NAR events...they can even be flown at NAR events if you join the program they have going on to test the viability of old motors). Besides...these motors were born to fly...not to sit around in a box! ;)

Craig

AGREED! Besides this quote, consider this... black powder get more volatile with age, heat, pressure, and even handling in some cases could produce unwanted effects... That's why it (even new) must go ground, as air shippments are in cargo hulls which are NOT pressurized, so anything in the hull is subjected to extreem pressure fluxuations.

[Brian L Raney]

Canada Post does not permit shipment of rocket motors under ANY circumstances. In fact, Canada Post 'ground' shipment is not really by ground................it is just a lower class of service that has to wait until any other air shipments get on the plane first, then it gets on the plane. There is NO WAY that I would ever ship a model rocket engine out of Canada. It would have to be pick up only.

Joe

Canada Post
6 Dangerous Goods

Dangerous Goods, as defined by the Transportation of Dangerous Goods (Clear Language) Regulations (TDGR), are non-mailable matter, except, if permitted by the TDGR, the mailer of the dangerous goods offers them to Canada Post for transport, and if the Corporation is capable of handling them. Canada Post will not otherwise accept packages that contain dangerous goods or that display dangerous goods symbols.

It is important to note that dangerous goods can be found in everyday items or commodities.

Transportation of Dangerous Goods Act, 1992
Transportation of Dangerous Goods Regulations

Special Cases
The following sections, and some of the special provisions included in Schedule 2, Special Provisions, provide an exemption for dangerous goods that are "in transport". Such an exemption extends to handling, offering for transport and to the means of containment used. In section 1.15, for example, a shipping document is not required when the dangerous goods are in transport. Consequently, the consignor would not be required to prepare a shipping document before the dangerous goods are placed in transport.

1.15 Exemption for Personal Use

(1) These Regulations do not apply to dangerous goods in transport on a road vehicle, a railway vehicle or a ship on a domestic voyage, if the dangerous goods
(a) are transported between
(i) a retail outlet and the residence of the purchaser,
(ii) a retail outlet and the purchaser's place of use,
(iii) the residence of the purchaser and a place of use, or
(iv) two residences;
(b) are contained in one or more means of containment each of which has a gross mass less than or equal to 30 kg and is designed, constructed, filled, closed, secured and maintained so that under normal conditions of transport, including handling, there will be no accidental release of dangerous goods that could endanger public safety;
(c) are not for resale or for commercial or industrial use; and
(d) are in a quantity and concentration available to the general public at retail outlets.
Examples of retail outlets are hardware stores, automotive industry stores, pool supply stores and farm co-ops.
( 2) Subsection (1) does not apply to explosives except for
(a) explosives with UN numbers UN0044, UN0070, UN0105, UN0131, UN0173, UN0193, UN0336, UN0337, UN0373, UN0404, UN0432 and UN0454; and
(b) explosives with UN numbers UN0012, UN0014, UN0055, UN0323, and UN0405 if
(i) in the case of cartridges for rifles or pistols, the calibre is less than 50 calibre, or in the case of cartridges for shotguns, the calibre is greater than or equal to 8 gauge, and
(ii) the cartridges are packed in metal clips or in partitions inside boxes that fit snugly in an outside packaging.
(3) Subsection (1) does not apply to
(a) dangerous goods in a quantity greater than 150 kg gross mass that are in transport on a road vehicle, a railway vehicle or a ship on a domestic voyage; or
(b) radioactive materials that are required to be licensed by the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission.


Control of Model Rocketry in Canada

Mail

5.5 Normally, regulations made under the Post Office Act prohibit the shipment by mail of any article classified as an explosive, including all fireworks. However, because of the limited hazard, model rocket engines and model rocket kits containing engines up to and including Type D may be shipped under the following conditions and restrictions:

The mailer is required to provide protection of the contents for safe conveyance through the mails. Owing to the characteristics of these items and the treatment they will receive in the mail stream, they will require a high degree of protection to prevent puncture, shock or distortion either to themselves or their container. No item shall be packaged so that its contents may harm personnel or equipment.
The engines must be adequately cushioned and isolated by cardboard separators, and no parcel shall weigh more than 11 kg.
The outside of the package will be endorsed, either by means of a label, hand stamp or by printing thereon the words “FIREWORKS TYPE D”.
Damage to any package containing model rocket engines that has occurred in the mails and that results in the premature ignition of the engines contained shall be reported to the Chief Inspector of Explosives by the receiver of the package.


Sorry for the INFO dump :o, but as you can see, you are allowed to mail Estes rocket Engines (type A-D inclusive, UN0432 code 1.4S) through Canada Post, providing you follow the Transportation of Dangerous Goods regulations and the Control of Model Rocketry in Canada. The quantity limit is 25 Engines and/or 100 igniters not exceeding 11 kg per package.

Exporting and importing Engines in and out of Canada requires an expensive permit. Commercial courier may deliver all other engine sizes, but they'll certainly charge you extra hazmat fees for the privilege.

[Capt'n Jim]

Here's something I pulled off the internet when I wanted to ship. How does this fit in?

SHIPPING SPORT ROCKET MOTORS
Sport rocket motors contain high-energy propellant and pyrotechnic materials. Because
of this, they are classified by the U.S. Department of Transportation (DOT) as Òhazardous
materialsÓ (HAZMAT) even though extensive testing has shown that the motors are actually extremely safe and highly resistant to accidental ignition. Shipment of sport rocket motors is subject to detailed Federal regulation, and anyone who ships them without knowing and complying with these regulations is subject to criminal prosecution. This summary of shipping regulations is provided to inform and assist rocketeers who need to get their motors from one place to another. Sport rocket motors are strictly forbidden to be carried or shipped on passenger-carrying aircraft; DO NOT TRY TO FLY ON AN AIRLINE WITH ROCKET MOTORS.

Shipping regulations for all modes of cargo transportation except U.S. Mail are found in
the DOTÕs volume of the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) which is Part 49, Sections 170
through 173. Sport rocket motors are assigned DOT hazard classifications by the Bureau of
Explosives based on the amount and type of propellant that they contain. The hazard
classification determines what mode of shipping, and method of packaging and labeling, must be used. CFR 49 has very lengthy and exact regulations for packaging and labeling all forms of hazardous materials for shipment.

Sport rocket motors containing more than 62.5 grams of propellant (or reload kits made
up of modules with more than 62.5 grams of propellant each) are classified as a DOT ÒDivision 1.3Ó Explosive. These can only be shipped by commercial motor freight carriers, at significant expense both for the packaging and the shipping.

Sport rocket motors with 62.5 grams or less of black powder or ammonium perchlorate
composite propellant are classified as Division 1.4 Explosives. Within this overall 1.4 category, motors with more than 30 grams of propellant are classified as Division 1.4C (specifically, as Model Rocket Motor NA0276), while those with 30 grams or less are classified Division 1.4S (Model Rocket Motor NA0323). Most sport rocket manufacturers have a special DOT exemption that gives them permission to ship small quantities of sport rocket motors that are classified 1.4 (62.5 grams or less of propellant) as if these items were a lower hazard category called Flammable Solid (Division 4.1, UN1325). The packaging and labeling for 4.1 materials is less burdensome than for 1.4 materials. Most motors are shipped as Flammable Solids to individuals and hobby stores by the manufacturers and their distributors. Individual rocketeers are not parties to this DOT exemption and cannot ship motors as Flammable Solid (4.1), even if they can find a carrier who will accept and ship HAZMAT.

The main shipping agencies available to consumers in the U.S. are the U.S. Postal
Service (USPS), United Parcel Service (UPS), and Federal Express (FedEx). Neither UPS nor
FedEx will accept HAZMAT for shipment from private individuals. They require that any
shipper of HAZMAT be a commercial entity operating under a Hazardous Materials Contract
Service Agreement with them. As part of this contract, the shipper must certify that their
personnel who do packaging and handling of HAZMAT have completed the biennial HAZMAT
training required by DOT regulations. Commercial HAZMAT shipments via UPS require
payment of a surcharge of $15 for ground transportation or $25 for air transportation, plus
extensive paperwork, and compliance with lengthy and strict packaging and labeling
requirements. With UPS and FedEx generally unavailable for use by private individuals, the
only motor-shipment options for individual rocketeers are USPS or commercial motor carriers.

While some motor carriers may work with individuals, they must still require compliance with the DOTÕs extensive paperwork, packaging, and labeling requirements.
.Shipping regulations for sending sport rocket motors via the U.S. Mail are found in
Postal Publication 52, ÒAcceptance of Hazardous, Restricted, and Perishable MatterÓ, Section 341.22a and Appendix 1A. The USPS will accept small sport rocket motors for shipment by individuals, but only under certain limited conditions. First, they will accept only motors that are classified 1.4S/NA0323 (30 grams or less of propellant), and that are packaged and marked appropriately (see below). Second, the shipper must present to their Postmaster a ÒLetter of AuthorizationÓ, addressed to them personally from the USPS Manager of Mail Preparations and Standards (475 LÕEnfant Plaza SW, Washington, DC 20260), which authorizes them to enter these motors into the U.S. Mail. Getting such a letter requires 30-60 days, and requires the consumer to provide specific information about the motors that he plans to ship, including a dimensioned drawing and a Material Safety Data Sheet for each motor type. Once it is issued, the letter of authorization is valid only for 1 year. Estes, Quest, and Aerotech have provided this technical material to the USPS and have negotiated blanket letters for themselves and their distributors. They have to provide a complete list of all these distributors to the USPS each year in order to maintain this authorization.

USPS requirements for shipping small rocket motors are that the motors be in individual
sealed packaging, well-cushioned from shock inside an outer package; that the outer package be strong and securely sealed fiberboard, no more than 25 pounds in weight; and that the package be marked ÒToy Propellant Devices, Handle With CareÓ and ÒSurface Mail OnlyÓ with no HAZMAT labels. The Surface Mail requirement means that the motors must be shipped by Parcel Post, not Priority Mail or Express Mail. There is no surcharge for sending HAZMAT. If you are willing to go through the effort of getting the letter of authorization, this is the easiest and cheapest way to ship small sport rocket motors.

[ghrocketman]

Basically what all these regs. say is that it an absolute nuisance for individuals to try to ship rocket motors/ engines and don't even try it.
I have NEVER myself tried to ship rocket motors, and never will unless the hazmat requirements for shipping them even by ground are dropped (not ever likely)....waaaaayyyyy too much hassle.

That being said, several motors have been shipped to me by what I would assume were individuals from another forum that used to auction motors.
All of these were below the 30g/grain and 62.5gr total so were model (not hi-power) rocket engines. I assume they had filled out the proper USPS paperwork....they were labelled ground-only properly on the boxes.

Personally I think the hazmat fees shippers are allowed to charge for various items deemed by DOT as hazardous result in little more than a way for the shippers to pad their profit margin for doing very close to nothing. Quite frankly, I'd like to see the shippers FORCED to take the hazard shipments while DISALLOWING them to pass any charge onto the customer.
They should have to EAT IT out of their profit margin as a COST OF DOING BUSINESS.

[Ltvscout]

Basically what all these regs. say is that it an absolute nuisance for individuals to try to ship rocket motors/ engines and don't even try it.
In regards to this I live by the Nike slogan.

[ghrocketman]

Scott,
I like your statement.
I NEVER ship them, but I do not question those that send them to me as the responsibility lies with the shippER, not the one the engines are delivered too.

[alancantor]

How it turned out...

After posting my question about the value of old engines, several people approached me with offers to buy. A few very enterprising collectors offered to send relatives or friends by car to pick up the collection, either in Toronto or nearby.

A deal was struck, and the engines were purchased by a very lucky collector!

[Rocket Doctor]

What about crossing back into the US? I hope that the border agents don't hassle them.

[mojo1986]

Wow, Brian! Thanks for posting that information! I will be taking a copy of it to the post office if I ever need to ship any engines. After all these years of being told by postal authorities that black powder rocket engines could not be shipped through the mails under ANY circumstances, it turns out that there is a way to legally ship them within Canada! What's most amazing about this is that for once Canadian regulations are LESS stringent than those in the US. Very cool!

Joe