fuel types

[joe11]

I am doing a science project and I was wondering if you know where I could get the types of propellants in estes rocket engines. I know that they would typically keep that secret but was just wondering whether anybody knew what the fuels are made of. thanks joe

[pantherjon]

Simple: Black powder

Basically the same thing as gunpowder

[Royatl]

Black powder is a classic mixture of 15% charcoal, 10% sulfur, and 75% saltpeter (potassium nitrate). Not that secret, though they may occasionally change the percentages very slightly for various reasons, or add burn-rate modifiers for the delay charge.

Not a good idea to try to make it yourself.

[Rocket Doctor]

Do not attempt to make your own black powder !!!!!
Leave motor making to the experts.

Model rocketry was started in the first place to get away from the "basement bombers", where young budding "scientists would mix all types of chemicals together and suffer serious personal injury.

I'm sure that you can come up with a better and safer science project.

I would strongly suggest that you visit the Estes web site www.estesrockets.com, and, click on the educational link.

Or better yet, call the Estes director of Education Ann Grimm at 1-800-525-7561 hit "0" ask the operator for the Director of Education

We want you to have a safe model rocket experience.......

[Nuke Rocketeer]

Black powder is a classic mixture of 15% charcoal, 10% sulfur, and 75% saltpeter (potassium nitrate). Not that secret, though they may occasionally change the percentages very slightly for various reasons, or add burn-rate modifiers for the delay charge.

Not a good idea to try to make it yourself.

I think you might have the proportions wrong for charcoal and saltpeter...........

[Bazookadale]

I think you might have the proportions wrong for charcoal and saltpeter...........

As Royatl stated the proportions may vary but 75 - 15 - 10 is the classic mix
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder

[Royatl]

I think you might have the proportions wrong for charcoal and saltpeter...........

Nope. That's quoted from an Estes patent.

[ghrocketman]

Seems to me that the Amateur/Experimental "Basement Bomber" rocketeers have always gotten a bum rap, not that one should ever try to make BP engines in a basement.
I do recall all the hub-bub when certain BP manufacturers tried to quash RMS composite engines on supposed "safety" grounds though.

[Solomoriah]

I've been mulling over a Dangerous Idea for the last few months. Now, let me preface this by saying that I have no intention of carrying out the following; I'm not adequately experienced in the necessary skills nor trained in the appropriate knowledge. But...

Tim Van Milligan explains very clearly why making your own propellant is not sensible. He points out the amount of research needed, and the cost of equipment to do that research, and then the cost of equipment to actually make the engines after you have figured them out. And, such experimentation is naturally dangerous.

So I'll take that as a given. But let's suppose that someone with the right knowledge were to spend some time and money working out a reasonably safe, reliable and predictable binary propellant. Such a propellant might consist of fuel in a paste form, and oxidizer as a powder. The developer would have to work out the optimum proportions of fuel to oxidizer, and design simple-to-use equipment for safely mixing the propellant and loading it into engine casings.

Naturally, a standardized engine casing (or a variety of casings of differing sizes) would be needed. The propellant should be able to burn reasonably well from the end, and thus not require a bored-out core. A delay charge could be made using a different fuel paste and an appropriate proportion of oxidizer, and likewise an ejection charge could be made the same way (though a powdered fuel/powdered oxidizer combination might be effective here also).

As the fuel(s) aren't explosive (and can't be mistaken for an explosive) when not mixed with oxidizer, it should be entirely legal to ship them anywhere without any hazardous material regulations applying. I'm not sure what sort of rules apply to shipping oxidizers (though I assume someone will tell me shortly).

Obviously, we are outside the bounds of "model rocketry" at this point, but I wonder if, given an appropriate safety code and a good, well-tested design, this sort of propellant might make "amateur rocketry" nearly as safe as "model rocketry" is now.

[Nuke Rocketeer]

Nope. That's quoted from an Estes patent.

:rolleyes: I really oughta look before I leap. You are right. I was just going off a faulty memory that told me charcoal was the major ingredient. Oh well, I can blame it on that precursor to Alzheimers, known as Sometimers.

Joe W

[Rocket Doctor]

I think that a science project shouldn't include making black powder. If the school officials get wind of this think about the bottom line.

This would most certainly make the news.

In my opinion, there are better projects to explore rocketry than this.

Also, there are two articles from the New York Times archives that deal with "basement bombers", check it out under the main title of "rocketry" pre 1980.

[Bob H]

... Oh well, I can blame it on that precursor to Alzheimers, known as Sometimers.

Joe WI always thought that ailment was CRS. I have suffered from it for years.

[Nuke Rocketeer]

I always thought that ailment was CRS. I have suffered from it for years.

CRS???? :confused:

[Solomoriah]

CRS???? :confused:
Can't Remember S&@#

[pantherjon]

I have had that syndrome for a few years now..I think..I can't remember! Glad I don't have Dunlap Disease tho! ;)

[Rocket Doctor]

I've been mulling over a Dangerous Idea for the last few months. Now, let me preface this by saying that I have no intention of carrying out the following; I'm not adequately experienced in the necessary skills nor trained in the appropriate knowledge. But...

Tim Van Milligan explains very clearly why making your own propellant is not sensible. He points out the amount of research needed, and the cost of equipment to do that research, and then the cost of equipment to actually make the engines after you have figured them out. And, such experimentation is naturally dangerous.

So I'll take that as a given. But let's suppose that someone with the right knowledge were to spend some time and money working out a reasonably safe, reliable and predictable binary propellant. Such a propellant might consist of fuel in a paste form, and oxidizer as a powder. The developer would have to work out the optimum proportions of fuel to oxidizer, and design simple-to-use equipment for safely mixing the propellant and loading it into engine casings.

Naturally, a standardized engine casing (or a variety of casings of differing sizes) would be needed. The propellant should be able to burn reasonably well from the end, and thus not require a bored-out core. A delay charge could be made using a different fuel paste and an appropriate proportion of oxidizer, and likewise an ejection charge could be made the same way (though a powdered fuel/powdered oxidizer combination might be effective here also).

As the fuel(s) aren't explosive (and can't be mistaken for an explosive) when not mixed with oxidizer, it should be entirely legal to ship them anywhere without any hazardous material regulations applying. I'm not sure what sort of rules apply to shipping oxidizers (though I assume someone will tell me shortly).

Obviously, we are outside the bounds of "model rocketry" at this point, but I wonder if, given an appropriate safety code and a good, well-tested design, this sort of propellant might make "amateur rocketry" nearly as safe as "model rocketry" is now.




Beware of the FBI, BATF, CIA, their all watching !!!!!

[Solomoriah]

Beware of the FBI, BATF, CIA, their all watching !!!!!
Now, let me be clear. I'm not proposing anything illegal, so far as I know, at least in the US. My understanding is that an individual may legally make low (not high) explosives in small quantities and use such materials where he (or she) created them. I'm proposing the development of a standardized, stable, safe binary semi-solid propellant which, before mixing, does not qualify as any sort of restricted or regulated explosive.

My understanding is that mixing the propellant and then transporting it would be illegal (without an LEUP), but that mixing it on-site and then burning it would be perfectly within the law.

[Shreadvector]

http://osfm.fire.ca.gov/pdf/fireengineering/fw/FireworksHandbook2002.pdf (http://osfm.fire.ca.gov/pdf/fireengineering/fw/FireworksHandbook2002.pdf)

[Rocket Doctor]

That about says it all.

[Solomoriah]

Those are California regulations... we don't all live there, do we?

[Shreadvector]

Those are California regulations... we don't all live there, do we?

Population, 2006 estimate
California USA
36,457,549 299,398,484

Every state has some regulations. Some use the national codes, others have their own.

Your attorney should probably reveiw your state regulations before you engage in pyrotechnic device manufacturing (and probably your insurance agent).

[Solomoriah]

Your attorney should probably reveiw your state regulations before you engage in pyrotechnic device manufacturing (and probably your insurance agent).
I did say I wouldn't be the one doing the development... I'm lacking in many areas of knowledge required for the project. I just hoped the idea might spark the right person to take a crack at it.

[Rocket Doctor]

Population, 2006 estimate
California USA
36,457,549 299,398,484

Every state has some regulations. Some use the national codes, others have their own.

Your attorney should probably reveiw your state regulations before you engage in pyrotechnic device manufacturing (and probably your insurance agent).


I totally agree with Fred, attempting to get into the motor/fireworks business should be left to the professionals, who have degrees.

With the way things are today, post 911, the local state ans federal government will be on you like a fly on honey.

It's bad enough to have a LEUP , I gave mine up, didn't need the hassle from my friendly ATF agent.

Just like Fred mentions, check with your attorney, insurance carrier, attorney general and the ATF, if that doesn't discourage you, or a friend, nothing will.

[Nuke Rocketeer]

The insurance agent will probably look at im like a vampire at the sun....complete horror as he scrambles to cancel existing policies.... :D

[Bazookadale]

The insurance agent will probably look at im like a vampire at the sun....complete horror as he scrambles to cancel existing policies.... :D

That's no joke - a friend of mine had his homeowners insurance cancelled several years ago when the agent found out he flew rockets - took some arguing but he got it re - instated